barimoto

I'm new to the forum in an attempt to solve my fish death problem. I have several tropical community tanks set up and recently have had problems with new fish dying within a few days of purchase. The fish stores have thus far been unhelpful in solving my mystery so I am hoping someone out there might have a suggestion.

Tank 1 problem.

My most recent problems have been with a 20 gal planted tank that has Wysteria, Java Ferns, Java Moss, Four-leaf clover, and Red Foxtail growing in it. There are 4 glo-lite tetras, a small red hi-fin pleco and 2-3 cherry shrimp in it. I know the pleco will eventually outgrow the tank but he is only about 3 inches long and hasn't grown much since February 2007 when I bought him. The glo-lite tetras have been in the tank for about 2 months. The cherry shrimp have been in the tank since February.

Stats: The tank was established using Bio-Spira in early February. Lighting is 3 Coralife T-5 24" bulbs 10k, 14 watts each, 42 watts total. Substrate is Flourite below black sand. Filtration is two Penn-Plax biofalls sizes 100 and 150. Temp: 82F, pH: 7.2, nitrates 0ppm, nitrites 0-0.25ppm, hardness: 120ppm, alkalinity: 120ppm, ammonia: 0ppm.

I have recently tried adding some fish in 3 different batches. First I tried adding a group of 5 neon tetras. One of these fish proceeded to die every 12 hours until all 5 died. I witnessed the glo-lites and the neons swimming together in a large school as I had hoped with an occasional fin-nip between them which seems playfully common even with the remaining glo-lites. I did notice that the dead fish were a bit beaten up when I found them, leading me to suspect the glo-lites were being territorial? Second was a single dwarf gourami. The gourami lived very happily, inspecting the plants, looking for hiding places, nipping the algae and plants, and eating regularly from the time I put it in. About 5 days later, it died while I was at work. Fortunately I was able to return the fish and get a replacement. This fish exhibited a similar pattern living quite contently for 3 days before it died. I have now added another dwarf gourami in hopes that this has just been bad luck. Unfortunately this fish has been doing quite well over the last 6 days but is now showing signs of lethargy and isn't being as curious as the last few days.
I have always performed 35% water changes every 1.5-2 weeks and use TetraAqua AquaSafe and API Aquarium salt in the recommended dosages.

Tank 2 problem.

This tank is a very similar setup. It is a 29 gallon planted tank with red rubin swords, various amazon swords, java moss, java lace ferns, anubias, wysteria, and a little hornwort and anacharis floating on top. There are 2 dwarf puffers, 5 julli cory cats, a bushy-nose pleco, 2 bumblebee gobies, a peppermint pleco, and 7 amano shrimp in it. I know the bumblebee gobies are supposed to be brackish but they have been brightly colored and very active since I introduced the to the tank back in February. The dwarf puffers were also introduced at that time along with the bushynose pleco and the amano shrimp. The julli cory cats have been added within the last 2 months.

Stats: The tank was established using Bio-Spira in late December. Lighting is 3 Coralife T-5 30" bulbs 10k, 18 watts each, 54 watts total. Substrate is Flourite mixed with beach sand. Filtration is two Penn-Plax biofalls sizes 100 and 150. Temp: 82F, pH: 7.2, nitrates 0ppm, nitrites 0-0.25ppm, hardness: 120ppm, alkalinity: 120ppm, ammonia: 0ppm.

In this tank I tried adding a pearl gourami which seemed fine for the first 2 days before it died. I immediately tested the water to be sure my parameters were within spec and found them to be fine. I then took the fish and a water sample to the store and they found that my water had high nitrates at 40ppm and refused to give a refund/exchange (I saw them stare at the two bags at first and I think they tested the water I brought the fish in and not the water sample I brought in because the water sample looked very clear compared to the yellowish water that the dead fish had been sitting in for an hour). I proceeded to explain that I had already tested my water to no resolve. I then returned home, tested the water again and found no problems.

The following day I took a new sample and brought it to work with me. I left the water in my car for about 8 hours in the sun. I then took the sample to a different store for testing and they found ammonia at 0.25-0.50 ppm (could sitting in the sun have caused the ammonia to develop?). Returning home, I tested the water a third time and found no ammonia.

The next day I purchased a new test kit (thinking mine was faulty) and tested again, finding no ammonia, nitrates, or nitrites.

With this tank I perform a 50-60% water change every 1-1.5 weeks due to the mess the puffers make. Again using the AquaSafe and Aquarium Salt.

To avoid a heavy setback to my wallet I'm thinking of putting some guppies in this tank just to add some character to the top part of my tank (hopefully you have gathered that most of the fish in this tank are bottom dwellers, with the exception of the puffers but they tend to hide near the base of the plants) instead of trying to add more gouramis but I'm still hesitant after the problems I've had in the last month or two.

In both tanks I have seen no physical signs of disease, parasite, fungus, etc; the water is (to my understanding) very well maintained; and I feel I am doing adequate water changes, water testing and I forgot to mention, replacement of the filter media every other month (one filter one month, the second on the next to keep the microflora steady). What really gets me is that I have had success with the cherry shrimp, amano shrimp, dwarf puffers, and bumblebee gobies, which to my understanding are very demanding marine creatures (I even took out some of my female amano shrimp with eggs and am currently trying to breed amano shrimp in a 2.5 gal breeding tank and have seen babies in the last week). All of the original fish that I started with (gobies, puffers, plecos, and shrimp) have survived this long with no disease or problem.

If you've taken the time to read all of this I appreciate it. Any feedback or suggestions would be very much appreciated as you can hopefully see that I have researched many of the "common" fish ailments and have found no plausible solution. I'm practically pulling my hair out and waking up in the morning to check and see if everything is still alive. Thanks!

Isabella

OK, first off, you have some Nitrite in your water, which indicated to me that something's up with the cycle. Whenever you have ANY Ammonia and/or Nitrite in your water, fish can get very sick from it and even die. Even smallest amounts of Nitrite and Ammonia can be deadly to fish.

Secondly, whenever you buy new fish, do you quarantine them for a period of observation? Also, do you acclimatize them properly before letting them into your tank?

Thirdly, adding too many fish at once to a tank can cause a sudden Ammonia and/or Nitrite spike, even if a tank is cycled. Maybe 5 Neons were too many and you got the toxic spike due to which they all died?

And lastly, fish are often bought already sick, so your fish might have been simply sick and it was a matter of time before they died. This is why quarantine and acclimatization are important factors when buying new fish.

Again, the varying test results on Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate. A Nitrate level of 40 ppm is very toxic to fish too, even though Nitrate is not as toxic as Ammonia and Nitrite. Not to mention, again, that ANY level of Ammonia - no matter how low - can be deadly to your fish. I don't know, but it looks like you're having problems with keeping your tanks cycled.

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How many gallons per hour do your filters pump in both tanks? What tests / test kit do you use for Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate? When you clean your filters, how exactly do you clean them? How often? If you change your filter media, what media do you change and how often? If your tanks are not overstocked, you don't need weekly 50-60% water changes, unless you're adding a lot of plant fertilizers to your tanks. How big do these puffers grow? How large do all of your algae eaters/plecos grow? Can you please, once again, briefly list for me the kinds of fish and amounts of fish you have in each tank? (Like 2 separate lists) Also, can you please list the adult size of each kind of fish you have? Thanks. Lastly: I don't know anything about puffers, but normally, freshwater fish don't need aquarium salt added to their tanks frequently (except when they're sick, though there some freshwater fish that can't tolerate salt at all). Unless your fish are sick, you can keep your tank temperature at 78-80 F.

Radcliffe

Wow, congrats on the very thorough post and helpful reply.

The only thing that sticks out right away is the temperature of the water. Higher water temperatures lower the amount of oxygen in the water, and the fish can suffer for it.

--R

barimoto

Isabella, thanks for the info.

Here's the answers to the info you asked for: As far as quarantining the fish, I do not have a separate tank that I use to quarantine new fish prior to introducing them to the tank. First I add an equal amount of my tank water to the water that is already in the bag with the new fish from the store to introduce them to my tank. Then I float the bag in the tank for 30-60 minutes to balance the temperature. I wait until the new fish look calm before adding them to the tank, hence the range of 30-60 minutes.

How does an ammonia or nitrite spike occur? Is it something that happens the second the fish are added? My understanding is that ammonia is a by-product of the waste produced by the fish and nitrate/nitrite are formed from ammonia by bacteria. Therefore, wouldn't it take a day or so for an ammonia/nitrate/nitrite spike to occur? This would possibly explain the dwarf gourami deaths (though I'd be a bit skeptical since we're talking about only one fish that's about 1.5 inches getting added to a 20 gal tank). Thank you for the info on the ammonia/nitrate/nitrite cycle. I always thought a varying course of ppm in each was natural. In a healthy cycle with zero ppm, does that mean that no ammonia or nitrates/nitrites are ever produced? What can I do to fix the cycle?

As far as purchasing sick fish, I try to pick out the healthiest looking fish at the store and I generally look at them the day they arrive, then purchase them 3-5 days later ( I know when my lfs gets in their stock so I'm sure to arrive that day). Again getting back to my final point in my original post, I had no problems with the dozen or so fish that I started with and the fish I added in the subsequent 4 months. Only in the last 2 months have I had problems with fish dying so quickly.

To answer your spec questions: The 20 and 29 gal tanks both have 2 filters on them, one that cycles 100 gph and one that cycles 150 gph according to the boxes. The filters have a premade filter floss/activated carbon catridge that I rinse in tank water once a month. Every couple of months I replace them, making sure to alternate which one I replace. The test kit I used to use was by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals called a Freshwater Master Test Kit with liquid reagents. I switched to Mardel strips both the 5-in-1 and Ammonia. I don't use plant fertilizers since I found they mostly contribute to algae growth. I rely on the nutrients from the Flourite. The dwarf puffers grow to about 0.8 inches long and probably weigh about 0.5 oz each so they're pretty tiny, but they poop about every 15 minutes which dirties the water fairly quickly.

20 gal tank:
1 red hi-fin pleco (about 4 inches long, maximum adult size is pretty big, like 24 inches I think)
4 glo-lite tetras (already fully grown at about 1.25 inches each)
2-3 cherry shrimp (already fully grown at about 0.75 inch each)
1 dwarf gourami (about 2 inches right now, max adult size about 2.5 - 3 inches)

29 gal tank:
1 bushynose pleco (4.25 inches long, max adult size 5 inches)
1 peppermint pleco (3.25 inches long, max adult size 8 inches)
2 dwarf puffers (already fully grown at about 0.8 inches)
2 bumblebee gobies (already fully grown at about 0.7 inches)
5 julli cory cats (2 about 1.25 inch each, 3 about 0.75 inch each, max size 2 inches)
7 amano shrimp (fully grown at about 1.25 inches each

The aquarium salt is necessary for healthy growth of all tropical fish and is not the same as marine salt that is used in brackish or saltwater aquariums. Temperature is around 80-82F.

Radcliffe,

I try to keep the temperature high to ward off disease. I've read that higher tropical temps like 80-82 are better than lower temps at 74-77, is that true? I haven't had any fish disease since I started the tank so I've always believed that it was working. I haven't been worrying about O2 levels since the plants grow quite rapidly which means they're consuming a lot of CO2 and producing a lot of O2. However, in a feeble effort to save my dwarf gourami I have added an airstone just in case O2 was a problem.

Thank you very much to the both of you!

Kevin

are you using strips to test your water?
i would lower the temp to 76-78
you might want to reconsider your acclimation process...read this article about the floating method
http://www.liveaquaria.com/general/g...3319&subref=AI

jsalemi

No, a heathy cycle means that as soon as ammonia is produced, the bacteria eat it and turn it into nitrites, and then the nitrite eating bacteria eat that and turn it into nitrates. Hence the 'cycle', which is always ongoing.

Among other things, spikes are caused by adding a lot of fish all at once, or overfeeding the fish, or adding a fish that produces a larger amount of waste. The trick is to monitor it closely, and make sure that ammonia and nitrites are 0 before adding the next batch of fish. Or cutting back on the amount of food you're feeding. And always do weekly water changes, at least 25% of the tank volume.

Sam Livingston

Where are you getting the fish? Is there a lot of dead fish in the tanks throughout the store? Stay away from large corporations (Wal-Mart, Meijers, etc...)

Isabella

If you pour the full amount of your tank water into the bag, then that's not the correct way to acclimatize your fish. You don't pour a large amount of your tank water into the bag at once. It can stress the fish so much they can die, especially if the water parameters from the fish store are very different from water parameters in your tank(s). The correct way to do this is to FIRST float the bag with new fish in your tank water (making sure no tank water is leaking into the bag, and no bag water is leaking into the tank) for about 15-30 minutes. Then, once the temperature stabilizes in the bag, start adding very small amounts of tank water into the bag every few minutes, doing this until the bag has at least the same amount of tank water as it had of fish store water. This process should take at least one hour. What I personally do, is I acclimatize my fish this way for about 2 - 3 hours. Once my bag is too full with tank & fish store water (all mixed together), I start removing water from the bag (throwing that water away), and keep adding tank water into the bag. When you do this for 3 hours or so, at the end, you have 100% of your tank water in the bag. And I simply let the fish go into the tank, together with the water (since it's 100% tank water). If however, you're not sure that you have 100% your tank water in the bag, net the fish and let them in your tank, and throw away the water from the bag. Fish store water may contain diseases, that's why it's not wise to pour it into your tank. Last point: when you're acclimatizing your fish, your tank lights should be OFF, and your room lighting should not be too bight (low is best). If you weren't acclimatizing your fish this way, this could have easily caused their deaths. Fish can die very quickly from improper acclimatization, especially if your tank water and fish store water parameters are very different - it's too big a shock/change for them. Your fish should be fine after such acclimatization I described above UNLESS your tank water parameters are not good and UNLESS you've already bought sick fish.

You need to read this to understand what cycle is and how to keep your tank permanently cycled: http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm. Also, don't forget to read the article I told you about above on the acclimatization: http://www.fishlore.com/acclimating-tropicalfish.htm. You should read all the beginner's articles as well: http://www.fishlore.com/Beginners.htm - if you don't take the time to read and learn, you're likely to get more and more dead fish.

Ammonia and/or Nitrite spikes don't occur "in a second", but they can certainly occur over 12-24 hours (I think 24 hours is more likely) if you add too many fish at once to your newly-cycled tank. (Remember, a tank is cycled when Ammonia = 0, Nitrite = 0, and Nitrate = some number higher than 0). The spikes occur because of a sudden increase in fish wastes. Fish wastes cause Ammonia and Nitrite to go up. If your tank is suddenly stocked with more fish than its nitrifying bacteria content can take care of, then you get the spikes. That's why adding very few fish at a time is very important, so that the nitrifying bacteria have the time to grow in number and can therefore support the wastes of more fish. This is not going to happen overnight, you need patience.

Once your tank is cycled, you need to be performing regular weekly or bi-weekly water changes, depending on your fish load. Normally, people perform anywhere between 15 - 30% weekly water changes. However, if you have too many fish, you'll need more frequent and larger water changes since you'll be getting more fish wastes. Anyway, overstocking is never healthy for any fish, so do not overstock. Fish wastes, in a cycled tank, keep increasing Nitrate so you're performing these water changes to be basically removing the accumulated Nitrate. If Nitrate exceeds 40 ppm, it's very toxic to fish. I believe anything over 20 ppm Nitrate is not exactly good. I keep all of my tanks below 20 ppm Nitrate. Last note: perform your water changes with a gravel vac./siphon tube - very cheap and available at any fish store.

That's very good. That's how I buy fish too. But unfortunately, many fish diseases are not apparent until even weeks after the purchase. That's why a Quarantine tank is necessary to have. Please, read about the Q tank in the beginner's articles. Another thing is that you can be buying perfectly healthy fish but if you don't acclimatize them properly, they can easily get sick from that and die too.

The 20 gallon tank has a filtration level of 100 gph, and the 29 gallon tank has a filtration level of 150 gph, correct? Normally, you should have a filtration level of at least 10 times the volume of your tank per one hour. Meaning, you should have at least 200 gph in your 20 gallon tank, and at least 290 gph in your 29 gallon tank (if your filters are regular hang-on-back power filters). Your tanks are underfiltered. They both need twice the amount of filtration you currently have. You need to have adequate amount of filtration (gph) and enough filter media to keep your tanks cycled too.

Activated carbon should be REPLACED every month, and not rinsed and put back into the filter! Activated carbon is only good for the first two weeks. If you keep it in your filter for more than a month, it will start leaching toxins BACK TO YOUR TANK and may therefore kill your fish. Hmm ... right? Lastly, if you have a sponge in your filter, you should NEVER throw it away as it contains the beneficial bacteria that keep your tank cycled. The only instance when you should throw the sponge away is when it's so old it's falling apart and not filtering your water anymore (sponges provide mechanical filtration through removing larger particles / debris floating in your water). When you throw away your sponge, you're throwing away the bacteria that keep your tank cycled, and that's how you will never keep your tank cycled. You should only rinse the sponge well, that's all. You should rinse it in your TANK WATER, NOT IN YOUR TAP WATER. Tap water contains chlorine and kills all the bacteria in your filter. Also, when you're performing water changes, add ONLY dechlorinated water into your tank. If you have bio-media in your tank (i.e. various bio-cubes, etc), it should be NEVER replaced either, only rinsed in tank water. Bio-media contain a lot of nitrifying bacteria that keep your tank cycled.

As for the test kit, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals liquid tests (or the Master Test Kit) are the best from what I hear, and from my personal experience. They're the most accurate and reliable tests. Test strips are considered inaccurate and unreliable. I recommend that you use AP LIQUID tests again. Read the AP test labels well for instructions on how to test your water, especially the label of the Nitrate test.

Your 20 gallon tank is not overstocked as of now, while the Pleco is still small. You need to transfer it to a MUCH BIGGER tank SOON (I'd recommend at least a 75 gallon tank for it). You can't have it in a 20 gallon tank.

Your 29 gallon tank is not overstocked as of now. But I'd also recommend moving the 8" Pleco to a larger tank before it's fully grown. I'd recommend at least 50 gallons for it, or so.

Who told you that aquarium salt is healthy for all tropical fish? I disagree. Aquarium salt is NOT healthy for all tropical fish. Tropical fish without scales can't tolerate salt at all. Nothing will happen to tropical fish with scales if they're in a tank with aquarium salt for a short while. But having aquarium salt in a freshwater tropical fish tank all the time is NOT a good idea at all. Aquarium salt is not needed in a freshwater tank at all UNLESS your fish are sick. It's a good treatment for sick fish, yes, but you don't need it in a healthy freshwater tank. I'd reconsider that thought if I were you.

As for the temperature, Kevin is right. The higher temperature means less oxygen in your tank. You can keep it at 82 if you want to, but make sure you have your water aerated well. Higher temperatures like 82 F are good, again, when your fish are sick. But if they're healthy you don't need your temperature that high. I'd normally keep it at or below 80F (76 - 80F is good, as Kevin has said). Also, a high temperature causes the fish's metabolism to speed up and it also causes your fish to die sooner (it shortens their lifespan).

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You didn't answer these questions: When you clean your filters, how exactly do you clean them? How often? If you change your filter media, what media do you change and how often? (I'm referring to the rest of your filter media here, not to the activated carbon).