BigJoe

OK, i had my tank up and running for about 5 months when i decided i wanted to put a few ghost shrimp in it. i have a 14g tank that at the time had 6 serpae tetras and 3 albino cories. a little bit overstocked but i was doing a water change every 4-5 days. i took about an hour acclimating the shrimp and put them into the tank. the next day i took a couple that had died out (expected that since they are shrimp...) well over the next week all 8 shrimp died but i think i might have missed one or two dieing early enough cause i had a massive spike in amonia which i didn't really notice until 3 of my serpes died all of a sudden. that was about a week after the shrimp died... a week later all of my fish died... i was doing daily water changed since the first serpae died... i let it go for 3 days once the amonia went down before trying new fish... 4 (asked for 3) tiny tetras, and 3 cories (varied) because i figured there was no way i could develop more amonia than it had gotten used to... did a large water change before putting them in (about 70%) all were dead before the next morning... i went to walmart today to get a test fish and got 3 glofish since i heard they were real hardy. 2 are dead (less than an hour later) and one i pulled out before it died but it will probably be dead before morning... all i have is a 1.75g bucket to put him in...

could all this be from the shrimp? could it be that bad of a disease? the water is clear and my anubias is growing well... could it be the nitrates even with all those water changes? could it be smt with my plants (i had a crypt that was dieing so i pulled it out and threw it away... i wanted to save my fish... could they die that fast from overfiltering or current from that? i don't have a test kit but i couldn't imagine everything would be that far off... pH maybe but it shouldnt be...

Chief_waterchanger

Are you on a city's water or on a well?

I bet, if you are a municipal water supply you need to call your local water department for a report on what they are putting in your water.

They are allowed to put things that the FDA consider "safe" for human consumption, such as ammonia in small concentrations, pipe re-hardening chemicals, etc.

Shawnie

im sorry for all the issue..sounds like you might be in a mini cycle..but without testing the water, you cant be sure....I would get an API liquid test kit as soon as you can...that way you can watch your own parimeters...at this point, daily water changes of at least 50% with some prime if you can get it..prime will neutralize the ammonia and nitrates for 24 hours until your next water change..and the water changes will keep the nitrates down...I wouldnt add anything else until you can get the test kit to make sure the water is perfect...goodluck!

MousePotato

Sounds like ammonia poisoning to me. You had a lot of livestock in a tiny tank. Also, I believe adding 7 fish to the tank at once did not give the bacteria time enough to adjust. You may find a test kit is cheaper than all those fish!

What were the symptoms before they died? What is your usual cleaning routine? Do you vacuum half of the gravel when you do water changes? What kind of water conditioner do you use?

BigJoe

its the same water i had been running before i moved i couldnt imagine it would go any different... if there is smt like that how can i remedy that situation? would i have to get a water filter or god help me RO/DI filter system.. i cant afford smt like that... also i'm not sure if it could be... the fish that i put in the bucket... (i put a bubble wand for aeriation...) it is doing better than when it was in the tank...

BigJoe

at first i figured a mini cycle... but i waited for amonia to go away... if the 7 fish caused too much amonia it would have taken more than 8 hours to kill them and as for these last 2 fish there is no way to uild that much amonia in a 14g tank in 2 hours...

Chief_waterchanger

City water can change day to day, but if you are on well water it is much more stable and I would ignore my post about there likely being an introduced chemical.

The ladies' responses about ammonia are very plausable also.

Shawnie

im sure the ammonia was there to begin with..an overstocked tank especially a small one, is deadly for ammonia...daily water changes are needed when they are overstocked...trust me I have two overstocked tanks and to keep the ammonia at 0, I have to change it once a day not once every 4-5 days...

BigJoe

not well water... city water... i guess if this fish lives i can write off the water issues and call it a problem with the tank...

Dino

No, I still think it is a problem with the city water.
City water changes from day to day.
Many cities also add ammonia to their water supply to keep their bacteria counts down.

IMO, if you had the tank set up for 5 months and things suddenly changed, the most likely suspect is the city water, not the ghost shrimp.

BigJoe

hmm... i don't know.. that last fish seemed to start dieing real quick when i put it back in the tank after a 90% water change... with an extensive vacuuming... water is about same temp... really really cold... about 60 F but i can't explain it... the water is all i can think of... i'm going on small trip this weekend after which i'm gonna try a bleach bath of everything... and move my tank... i just found some white residue on my filter.. maybe paint dust from a breaker box above it...

MousePotato

I'm gonna let the experts take this one, but I have to ask - did you say your water is 60 degrees? As in sixty? Six-oh? Where do you live that your water is THAT cold?? Mine comes out of the tap around 78-80 degrees!

That can't be good for fish!

Chief_waterchanger

... tropical fish need water temperatures in the upper 70s and lower 80s. Your water was entirely too cold for those fish to survive. Temperature is probably what got them.

MousePotato, you were correct. (Give yourself more credit MousePotato, you deserve it. )


Our tap comes out at 53-55 degrees farenheit, but that is why hot water heaters are useful.

clinton1621

You just answered why your fish all died... you cannot put tropical fish in 60 degree water.... they need a constant temp of 76 to 78 degrees.... do you have a heater

Edit : I got ninja'd by CWC lol

Chief_waterchanger

*puts the ninja suit away*

clinton1621

MousePotato

Thanks, CWC. I still consider myself a newbie, so I help when I think I can and back away when the real experts come in.

I have been living in the south too long. I had no idea water was so cold out of the tap for some of you. I always wondered about the people who said you need to be careful to heat it before adding to the tank. Seriously, down here I always let it run a bit to get cool enough for my fish, then I add it right away (with Prime) and my tank temp never changes. In fact, I worry that the water is too warm when I fill the bowls for our dogs on a hot summer day! I learn something new every day on this site!

On another note, clinton, where have you been? <tapping foot> How dare you have a life when I've been looking for you!

BigJoe

the problem isn't the temp... that is maybe the reason this last one didn't last too much longer but i can promise that i know the temp rules... when i first put them in it was 78 degrees... with acclimating the temp i put them into the tank and within an hour they were all showing early signs of death... i took one out and put it in a small bucket of straight tap water (yes cold) but it seemed to be doing ok for a short while and swimming quite a bit... did a 95% water change and waited about an hour to let what little sediment left fall... water was about 68-70 by then... i say 60s as in a range between 68-70... my heater can usually have the water heated in 2 hours total to 80... at about 68-70 i put the fish in and in about 10 minutes it was starting a float...

EDIT: also my water probably comes out warmer also but i usually do ony 15-25% water changes so it doesn't affect temp too much... i let it run a bit before filling the buckets...

sirdarksol

Even for a short time, an extreme change in temp (more than a couple of degrees) can cause shock in fish. If you can't run the water any warmer (in my taps, it's about 60% cold, 40% hot to get 76-78 degree water), you may want to get a heater to warm it up before returning it to the tank).
This shock severely stresses the fish, which, in turn, weakens its immune system, which can open it up to infection and death. Shrimp can be more susceptible to temp changes (though, given the right circumstances, they can actually survive freezing).

BigJoe

well i find it hard to believe that i have been doing this for 5 months and all of a sudden i cant put fish in the tank without them dieing... with acclimating them and in water that is of normal temp... this isn't an isolated sudden death incident... it is an ongoing problem... temp is not the major isue here...

nitz

Well I think the shrimp died because you introduced too many at one time. 8 to a small tank will spike the ammonia pretty bad and cause a mini cycle at the least.

Maybe you lost your cycle between the time your fish died and you introduced new ones. Again though, you added too many at one time. You need to take it slow, especially in smaller tanks, when introducing new fish with just a few at a time

Which water conditioner are you using?

sirdarksol

I understand that you feel this way, and you may be right. However, given the info that we have, temp is still a potential problem.
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but it seems that every response we've given, you've come back and said "that's not the problem" without giving us a definitive reason that it wouldn't be the problem. Without this information, we are going to continue to consider the major killers of fish (improper temp, ammonia spikes, etc...) to be the likely suspects.

Maybe I'm missing something in the thread, however.
Have you tested for ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates?
How are you acclimating the fish?
Let's look at some of the less likely sources, too.
What is your tank pH?
Can you call the fish store and ask for a reading on their tanks' pH?
Have you had your well water tested recently? It could be that something has leached into the water, causing the deaths (in this case, it would be good to know, as anything that is killing your fish is likely to hurt you).

Chief_waterchanger

I agree with SDS.

BigJoe

sorry for not responding.. i was out of town for the weekend.. i'm not trying to say that the amonia couldn't be the problem...i do however know for a fact that it is not temp that killed my fish... i do have a heater... i haven't had my water tested since my secnd group of fish died... and all i tested for was amonia as i don't have any more tests... PH i haven't tested and with that crypt i had started melting away it could easily be my problem since the last fish i had seemed to live longest in (yes cold) 1.75g bucket with no heater.

Hypnox

:P up here in the great white north the water comes out of the tap at 55F in the summer. :P

BigJoe

ok i think i found a big problem.... i tested my PH... i figured out that it is at most 6.0 what can i do to get it up? any natural ways without adding chemicals? could this be the reason the fish are dieing so quick?

jdhef

6.0 isn't terrible, but you can add some crushed coral or dolomite to the tank to naturally bring the ph up.

mrsmuffin

I disagree about the shrimp, they have almost no bio-load so adding 8 at one time is more like adding 1-2 inches of fish at most.

Did we ever figure out what water conditioner he was using?

BigJoe

sry for not posting that... i'm using API's tap water conditioner... the basic stuff... also... i am not sure if it is 6.0 or more acidic because that is as low as the API test kit goes... is there something i can test with to see if it is lower than that?

MousePotato

Well, down here in the great WET south, the ground doesn't get cold enough for that. We get a handful of days in the 40s around January, but by February the azaleas are blooming and summer is on its way!

That's good to know, though. We're about to move to a city that has these things called "seasons" and I could have ended up with a nasty shock the first time I tried to use water straight from the tap!

(sorry for the mini-hijack)