hobzz

WHAT SHOULD I DO??

Lucy

What's your pH reading?

Most fish can adapt to a higher PH than their profile suggests, you would just have to acclimate them very slowly to your tank.

A stable PH is better than a fluctuating one.

sirdarksol

I agree with Lucy. I have Amazon fish in tanks that have pH that is darn near 8, and they do fine. They'll probably never breed, but that's okay.

Trying to lower pH is really difficult. It requires removing minerals from the water, and then using something like peat moss to actually lower the pH. It requires a very dedicated mind to maintain this new pH (I don't have this, which is why my fish are stuck with a near-8 pH).

hobzz

API Above Yellow Like So I Changed 75% Water Its Light Yellow Now But . I Added Ph Decreser And Its Like Nothin Still Yellow

Lucy

What is above yellow? The reading itself would be helpful.
My API master kit came with a high PH tester, did yours?
If you keep adding stuff to change the ph, it's not going to be consistent, which is probably worse for the fish.

Alessa

just leave it like it is, otherwise it will be worse.

hobzz

Koo

Randall

The products that change the PH of the water will drastically change it.So if you have something like PH down,it will drastically lower it,for a while,then it will drastically go higher again.It is best to leave it where it is like the others have said.A stable PH is better than one that jumps all over the place.If your fish have adjusted to it,don't worry about it.
If you are really determined to lower it,a simple DIY CO2 system would probably do the trick.Have a few live plants in the tank so you do not kill your fish with too much CO2,and this will help lower the PH.This is a fairly low maintenance way to lower it,plus adding live plants is always good for your tank.And if you already have live plants,this will help them grow and thrive.You can build a CO2 system for a few dollars.Here is a link on how to do it.
http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

clinton1621

Adding CO2 just to lower ph is not a good idea, not to mention that it wont affect ph levels the way that you think it will.... live plants absorb CO2 during the day and release the oxygen back out, this actually RAISES the ph during the day.... at night the plants absorb oxygen and release the used carbon back out, this LOWERS the ph at NIGHT because there is less dissolved oxygen in the water.

So it still comes down to having a base ph level that is STEADY and not using anything other than maybe driftwood or peat moss to lower ph... even those wont do much if the water is hard and overly buffered. It is much better if you dont know what youre doing when making water ph and hardness adjustments to either ask someone who knows what the proper way is or to LEAVE IT ALONE, you will save a lot of headaches and sick or dead fish that are killed by constant ph changes.

mrsmuffin

He mentioned that he was trying to lower his pH by doing a 75% water change, but if his tap water's pH is high (which is most likely the case) then he needs to understand that doing a water change isn't going to help any...

hobzz - have you tested to see what your pH is out of the tap?

I agree with what everyone else has said about not using chemicals to try to lower your pH.

Randall

I have perssurized CO2.I know how CO2 effects waters PH.Your day and night sceniero is inacurate.Having live plants and a constant supply of CO2 will over time lower the PH of the water in the tank,and it will stay steady after some time as well.This is the easiest,lowest maintenance way to keep it lower.Like I also said,a stable PH is best.
And Mrsmuffin also make a good point.The PH in my tap water is so high my API test can't even read it.But in my planted,pressurized CO2 tank it is a steady 6.6
In my other non planted tanks it stays at around 7.5
Actually I have never had DIY CO2,so I should not say that it is low maintenance,when I really do not know.

clinton1621

Actually I was going by how water in nature (as in a body of water) due to dissolved oxygen levels and plants along with many other factors changes ph during night and day, and it does, this is a FACT not a scenario....

So yes by pumping in MORE CO2 than your plants USE, or keeping the CO2 pumping in at night when the plants dont use it at all will cause less dissolved oxygen in the water and that will cause the ph to lower... however this is NOT a safe way to lower ph, especially not for a beginner.
Too much CO2 and your fish will be on a one way trip to the porcelain highway.

Randall

It would be nice if you had not taken this so personally.Yes,the PH in a body of water and even in a tank of water with fish and CO2 artificially added will rise and lower with the photosynthesis process of the plants,that is indeed a FACT.But it is also a FACT that the difference in PH is MINIMAL,and does not harm livestock.And overall,the PH in a tank with CO2 added and a tank with no CO2 at all,the CO2 tank will have a lower PH.There is nothing difficult about keeping a tank with CO2.Even a beginner can do it.

Randall

.
Just leave it alone,that would be easiest for you,and best for your fish.

clinton1621

I didnt take it personally.... and I also never said that the ph fluctuation was large or that the difference from day to night would hurt the fish, its completely natural so why would it. My original post on this wasnt to inform you about anything or to attack you... it was directed to the person who made this thread who obviously doesnt know a lot about fishkeeping (no offense). And yes a beginner can do it, but you do have to regulate the amount of CO2 going in and whats actually being used, so I wouldnt say that its exactly a no brainer.

sirdarksol

Okay, Clinton and Randall, both of you have taken this rather personally, and both of you have good points, yet both of you are looking at a limited slice of the picture.
Yes, having plants and CO2 will generally lower the pH, presuming there isn't a huge buffer. There's a reason that the Amazon is an acidic body of water.
On the other hand, water supplies that are naturally high in pH usually also have a huge buffer, so it's unlikely that doing this would affect it much.
In the end, there is no way to reliably lower a high pH by adding anything to the water. You need to find a way to remove stuff from the water. Specifically the calcium that is raising the pH in the first place.

Both of you are also discussing a fallacy that CO2 displaces oxygen in the water. It doesn't, at least not at the low levels that a little DIY CO2 factory will produce. Even at night, with the plants producing CO2, the fish will do fine as long as the temperature isn't too high (which would limit the amount of dissolved gas in the tank). The surface turbulence of the HOB (presuming there is one, since most smaller tanks have them) will speed gas exchange, and if there's more CO2 percentage in the water than in the air, it will get changed out pretty quickly anyway.

Ghostfish

sirdarksol is right on by the CO2. My water is naturally around 7.8 or so. By using my DIY it stays pretty much at a steady 6.8. The CO2 levels never get dangerously high for the fish and indeed does not displace oxygen.

As far as the original question, just don't freak out. It is likely not a dire problem. If you purchased your fish locally, the pet stores pH is likely no better than yours. However, if you are determined to lower that pH then there are solutions. You have to be careful and reasearch them. The CO2 is a method, but as mentioned before you shouldn't use it unless you want it for live plants. You could reasearch adding peat moss to an aquarium filter. This will change the color of your water. You also have to be careful not to use too much. Another similiar solution is using a hardwood driftwood. This also can change your water color.

I would recommend googling the ideas given and see which one might help you the most. The ideas given so far are about the only ones I've heard of. I have tried using pH chemicals and I will tell you they are dangerous. I killed a few fish trying to get the pH down and the fish were likely content before I messed with it.

Randall

Where are you getting that from?

I am just going by what the PH in my tanks is.The ones with CO2 and plants,the PH is a lot lower than the ones without CO2 and plants.I do weekly 30% water changes in all of my tanks,and use tap water that has a PH so high that my tests cannot read it.The CO2 tanks stay at 6.6 All the others are 7.5 So I think the CO2 defininetly has something to do with the PH.
And you seem to be taking this a little personal as well.

sirdarksol

You said "have some live plants so you don't kill your fish with too much CO2." It's almost impossible for a DIY CO2 system in a tank with a HOB filter to kill fish with too much CO2. That's all I was getting at.

pepetj

Hot thread! too bad I missed it from day one!

In the CO2H "heated" theme, both are correlated, but other variables play a role here too. (you take pH and KH measures and you can figure out the level of dissolved CO2 in your tank; temperature, as we use it in fishkeeping is insignificant).

CO2 will absolutely bring your pH down, just a matter of time (a matter of both, DKH and CO2 difussion, actually) of when it happens and if it could or not be dangerous to pH stability (be careful if dKH goes below 2!).

As for addressing the issue in this thread, Ok... this is my little grain of sand, based on my experience (limited) and knowledge (also limited):
Rule of thumb #1: If your fish can thrive in your actual readings of pH, let it be. A stable pH is a must in fishkeeping, to the point that if you risk that, your tank will collapse (pH crash) and no one will survive (e.g. pH 4.0). pH ranges offered from the natural environment or niche of species is critical only for particularly delicate fish (e.g. Discus) or specimens that are caught in the wild (not breed in aquaculture tanks) and therefore you should aim at matching those parameters to the best of your abilities. Otherwise, don't worry too much. My experience: Green and Gold Severums from the wild will likely suffer at ph7.6 -my tank- but the ones I bought at the LFSs where kept at 7.4 and 7.6, so I let it be for the time being, until I intend to breed them, and then again, they might breed without my intervention.

Rule of thumb #2: Whenever possible, adjust pH without fish in the tank. That way no one gets hurt if a mistake is made -and mistake are prone in non-experienced fishkeepers as myself-, except, maybe, the colonies of beneficial bacteria. Then take your time acclimating your fish back to the tank.

Rule of thumb #3: If you must tamper pH wiht fish in the tank, there are safe ways to do it -tried and true, but it's allways easier -and safer- to raise pH than lower it. In your case, if you need to bring it down, you need to log (register, record) info on the following: GH, KH, pH, Temp. I am doing this right now, in my Angelfish tank.

Rule of thumb #4: Water color is optional. Use and replace regularly activated charcoal media if you don't want your water to be tanned -with tannins from drifwood, peat. This will keep your water cristal clear and you will not lose the benefit of the organic compounds that remove carbonates in the water. Or remove it if you want to recreate Amazon bio-type (e.g. for Discus, Angelfish, Oscars), the tea-coloured water looks great to me and some fish love it, but other hate it (e.g. African Cichlids).


To lower pH:
1) Take a sample of your tap water and tank water, place them in two separate shallow plates, leave them sit overnight, measure pH in early morning hours. (Dissolved Oxygen will lead to false high readings of pH). Your measures of GH and KH will not be affected by this, so you can measure them right away: to avoid mistakes, take two or three measures and use 10ml (instead of 5), add each drop and mix, take your time, count the number of drops it takes for the colour to change, divide it by two, and there you have your dGH and dKH. Multiply those values by 17.9 and you have the PPM of each. Log this values for future reference.

2) If your water is extremely hard, you will need to dilute it with reverse osmosis (RO) treated drinking water (do not use distilled water). Note that purchasing, installing and using a RO unit is expensive, and for the most part not cost effective in freshwater fishkeeping. You must be careful if you are doing this with fish in your tank. Use peat media sold for aquarium use, cheaper peat, sold for gardening can contain dangerous chemicals for fish.

This what I have done in my Angelfish tank with fish in it (a 29gal tall tank), a work in progress:

Before adjusting pH: Temp 27-28C (midnite-noon); pH 7.7-7.8 (midnite-noon); GH 16 dGH; KH 11dKH.

First I tried using peat extract from a product called Blackwater Extract from Tetra (TetraAqua division). It didn't worked at all. I used it for two weeks, adding at partial water changes, no results. Then I did a 50% water change (almost 10gal of water) using 3gal of RO treated drinking water. pH remained the same, but kdH dropped a bit to 9.5. After two weeks, I used 5gal of RO treated drinking water, pH remained the same, kdH stayed allmost identical, at 9 dKH. So I added Fluval Peat Fiber (out of market, but available down here) being conservative: It comes in 70g packs, so I used a bit under 1/3, aiming at 20 to 25g. I flushed it in tank water, placed it in the HOB in this order -bottom to top: Activated Charcoal, Peat Fiber mixed with Ceramic Media, Sponges (I allways use extra sponges). I used RO treated drinking water in a 50:50 solution with treated tap water for 3 weeks. At week 4, I had to stop doing that since KH went down to 2.5, still safe, but disaster can happen if it goes below 2.0.

Last week readings:
pH 7.1-7.2 (midnite-noon), GH 7dH; KH 2.5dKH. I decided to remove some of the peat, and used treated tap water. Also kept at hand crushed corals, just in case a reading of 2.0dKH was obtained.

Actual readings (yesterday):
Temp 27-28C, pH 7.1-7.2 (midnite-noon), GH 7dH; KH 3.0dKH, ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates <10ppm.

I will wait until KdH raise to at least 4.0 before using a cheap DIY CO2 system. For the sake of the fish. It has taken me over 4 weeks to go from 7.7 to 7.2. I will most likely hit 6.8 (my target) with minimal levels of dissolved CO2 -airstone difussor might do it.

Sidenote: A drawback is that peat media should be replaced every 4 to 5 weeks. And
Activated Charcoal replaced every 3 weeks at the most. However, if a bag of 70g lasts
for 3 or 4 months, I would say it is cost-effective. Maybe at that point, blackwater extracts, that contain peat extract, would do the work wonderfully.

Another Sidenote: Keeping crushed corals (sold as substrate at the saltwater section of the LFS) at hand for inmediate use will stop pH from going down, indeed, it will put the "get the pH down project" in pause, but will give your fish room for surviving.

Hope this is helpful for you

Pepe
Santo Domingo

clinton1621

I disagree with the comment about distilled water, it is EXACTLY the same thing if not better because R.O. can still have trace minerals that were not filtered out... thats not really the point though. They will both work the same way, the drawback with distilled water is the possible exposure to copper... this is a very slim chance considering copper piping is no longer used mainstream for water supplies (at least in the U.S.) not to mention a simple copper test will nullify this worry.