Isabella

Hello everyone I have a question most likely for Butterfly or Gunnie, however if anyone knows the answer please share it with me. Or I should rather state that it's more of an advice that I am seeking.

I have 11 angelfish fry in my 10 gallon tank. They're about 2 months old and almost an inch in length (those largest ones, that is; because some are smaller than that). I've had an established filter in that tank long before the angels hatched, so when they hatched they had perfect water. The water is still good, as I do a lot of water changes, et cetera.

I have Whisper Tetra filter in that tank (for a 10G tank of course). The problem is that the bio-bag in the filter has been there for a long time (I'd say for 5-6 months) - I've been just rinsing it and keeping all the good bacteria for as long as I could. Especially with baby angels I didn't want to throw the bag out, as even a mini-cycle could be dangerous for baby fish.

Now, the bio-bag is so old that it's literally statring to tear apart. I want to replace it with a new one but I am afraid that if I do this, there will be a mini-cycle that will hurt my baby angels. But this bag seriously needs to be replaced because soon it won't even be able to filter the water from its debris. So my question is, what is the safest way to replace a bio-bag in a tank with 2-month old baby angels?

I know I can take a piece of the established bio-bag and put it in the filter together with the new bio-bag so that the beneficial bacteria colonize the filter faster. However, even with that there will most likely be a mini-cycle, right?

Any comments will be greatly appreciated

fish_r_friend

you could put the new filter floss in front of the old floss for a week or 2 then change the floss on the filter frame putting some of the old floss in to the new floss

vin

Change the BioBag altogether....The activated carbon in the BioBag is long past expired. The AC in the biobag is what filters the chemical impurities out of the water (waste, gasses, excess nitrates, etc) and loses it's useful life after a while....Whisper recommends changing the BioBag once a month or when the water stops flowing through the filter.

The black sponge material in the filter is what houses the bacteria....All your doing is retaining extra waste materials and recycling the impurities in the water as the AC can no longer absorb them......So you're not really doing your angels any good anyway.

I've just gotten through doing a ton of research on this very subject and everything I've read says to replace these filter cartridges at least once a month just for the sake of refreshing the activated carbon alone.

You may experience a bacteria bloom, (I did last month) but a couple of water changes will help to clear that up. I did 3 - one every other day in my 15g and the water was crystal clear within a couple of days.

fish_r_friend

vin the thing is she has baby angelfish that need the best water quality they can have and she cant afford to go threw a bacteria bloom

Butterfly

Isabella is there room to put a new filter bag in with the old ? if their is just do that for a couple of days. If there isn't just put a new one in and put as large a piece of the old one as possible in with the new one. I think you should be ok.
Carol

vin

What's worse? Bacteria bloom or toxic chemicals being reintroduced to the water As it is the filter bag is doing nothing right now....There is nothing removing the chemicals that the fish waste produces, nothing to keep the excessive nitrates in check and all it is doing is letting the harmful stuff in the water recirculate....

Now, I don't know if baby angels can handle the bacteria bloom or not, but by sword tail fry handled it just fine....If all of the other parameters are within range, I would think that suspended bacteria wouldn't matter since they are not toxic to the fish in the first place.

fish_r_friend

Swordtail fry are hardyer than Angelfish fry

vin

That's fine, but I still don't think that non toxic bacteria will harm them.....If the continually leaching chemicals that are being bypassed by the activated carbon haven't done anything to them by now, I don't see how the 'potential' bacterial bloom would.........At 2 months old? I wouldn't think so anyway.....

Butterfly

If the filter is changed completely without seeding there may be an ammonia spike. Even at two months angel fish fins are still developing. The spike can burn the fins and cause them to be deformed. Thats the reason for such frequent water changes for angel fry. Isabella is right on the money trying to be so careful.
Carol

0morrokh

I think Isabella has the same filter as I do, and I have tried sticking in the old media behind the new stuff but it just cloggs up the filter. So what I do is cut a piece of the old media (about 1/2 of one side of the bag) and put that behind it. I have never had any problems with ammonia spikes.

Isabella

Thank you all for suggestions.

Vin: while I understand what you're trying to say, I have to disagree with you. If I didn't have baby angels I'd be changing the media as often as I wanted. However, that's the whole point: you can't do that when you have baby angels. If I changed the filter media as I pleased, they'd be dead long ago (because, naturally, all the beneficial bacterial population would be removed). And there are no toxic chemicals in my tank nor in my filter Vin, because I change 50% of that water every single day and rinse the filter thoroughly every couple of days. Therefore it's impossible for chemicals to be in that water. If there were any chemicals in that water, at any point, baby angels would get sick and die. They're still alive. Vin, it is the bacteria that are the cornerstone of any filtration system - you cannot be "regularly" removing them from a fry tank. Carbon or charcoal are in fact not even necessary - they expire as soon as a couple of days (not exceeding one week even). What expired carbon can provide at most is more surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize. In regular circumstances, yes, you'd need to change the bio-bag more often, because you don't do 50% daily water changes in a regular tank. BUT, baby fish tanks are a completely different story. With so many water changes, they're far safer even without carbon, than regular fish tanks with mature fish. My water doesn't even have any nitrate. So, I think I did them only good by holding on to my old bio-bag for as long as I could. Lastly, Vin, the bio-bag provides more surface area for bacteria to colonize than does the small piece of sponge. And one more thing, Vin (lol, sorry, I talk too much!), it's actually not necessary to be changing filter media every month, "as the manufacturer recommends". They recommend it because if people change media less often, they will make less money since no one will be buying their filter media. Changing filter media often is not exactly beneficial to fish since by doing this one removes all the beneficial bacteria - which are what is most necessary for filtration. With frequent water changes and good bottom cleaning as well as frequent filter rinsing - no chemicals will accumulate and water will be very clean and safe.

Carol, Omorrorh, and Fish_r_friend: I will replace the old bio-bag then, since it is tearing apart (if it were not, I'd still keep it). And I will put (together with the new bio-bag) as large a piece of the old one as I can. I'll put the largest piece possible that will still allow for a reasonable water flow. So, Carol, with a large piece of the old bio-bag and with bacteria on tank walls and on tank bottom, will there still be a spike? You see, that's what I am afraid of. I don't want my babies to get burned or hurt in any way. I will not do anything until you have confirmed that what I am about to do is safe and will not hurt my fish.

Thank you all once again - I really appreciate your help.

0morrokh

I know the question wasn't for me but I don't think there will be a problem with ammonia. The tank is established and has lots of bacteria in places besides the filter media. Plus you are putting a piece of old media in to start the colony. But I know if those were my baby Angels I'd be very worried about it. Remember you can always do a nice big water change if you are getting any hint of ammonia readings. And keep up the good work! I don't know how you can manage daily 50% water changes. Your Angels will be so beautiful!

Isabella

Thank you Omorrokh. I'll definitely do huge water changes if I detect any ammonia or nitrite (though I hope I won't detect anything of the sort!).

Carol, I forgot to add something to my previous post. I will try to put the whole old bag with the new one inside the filter. However, Carol, I am afraid the filter won't be able to get a good water flow with so much material inside of it. So, if it does not work, then I will cut a large piece off the bag and put it together with the new bag. How long after putting the new bag in, can I remove the old piece from the filter?

ncje

Personally for a fry tank ..... I have had many... I will only ever use sponge filters. They are by far the best option in fry tank filtration. I successfully raised over 1000 discus fry, another 200 various mbuna fry, not to mention uncountable hartwegi and bifasciatum fry just using these. Ok but that doesnt solve your problem.... what I would do is place the old media in the end of a stocking to keep it together and tie it off and just pop it back in after a mild tank water rinse.

Butterfly

Isabella it will be fine just putting in the piece of old filter media when you install the new one. You are doing such a good job!!! But the babies are growing up and we the extended family need to see some new pics
Carol

Isabella

Ncje, you're 100% right. The reason I have a Whisper Tetra filter in my fry tank is that the babies were completely unexpected and I was totally unprepared. All I had was the extra 10G tank, airpump and heater, and this very filter which was already established (because I was keeping the 10G tank cycled at all times just in case I'd need it for example for sick fish). Since I didn't expect to have these babies, I never had any sponge filter ready. The Whisper Tetra was an only option at that time. What I did was I put a piece of stocking over the intake tube and decreased the water flow to gentle. And the babies made it But I agree, sponge filters are the best for fry tanks. If I ever raise another batch of angels again, I'll get a sponge filter for sure. They're just much safer.

Carol, I am afraid 2 bio-bags (old and new one) will not fit inside the filter box. So what I will do is I'll cut a piece of the old bio-bag the largest size possible that will cover the front of the new bio-bag (I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly - let me know if you're confused about what I'm trying to explain, lol). This cutout piece will be placed between the sponge and the new bio-bag (if you know how a Whisper Tetra filter looks like, you'll know what I'm talking about). So, Carol, it will be safe to do, right? As for the pictures, I'll try to take some new ones for you

chickadee

Have you tried putting your old bio-bag into a piece of nylon stocking or something to hold it together and see if you can make it last a little longer until the babies are a little older? Maybe this is a silly suggestion, but I thought it might work. If you don't think the water would flow through that well you could cut a small piece out and let it just hold the edges together.

Rose

vin

Isabella,

I won't debate you on the life of carbon, but would rather direct you to all of the research done by experts that I have provided that prove your very statements incorrect......I would refer you to the "filtration questions" thread and the therad that asks about cycling with or without activated carbon and changing the filter media and why it's done....There are links to articles that relate directly to that subject alone.....

In fact, the carbon you have in there may not allow toxic chemicals that show up on routine tests, but will in fact allow other bacteria and chemicals to leach back into your water that can cause long term organ damage to your fish through a process called re-adsorbtion....without you even knowing it.

I completely understand you have fry.....I also completely understand where the beneficial bacteria live.....And since those bacteria are not toxic to fish......Part of the reason you are changing 50% of your water daily is without a doubt because your mechanical filtration is not working properly in addition to the desire to maintain water quality.....The filter media other than the biobag should have enough beneficial bacteria in it to support the colony itself which is another reason why it is safe to change the biobag.........The biobag and the clogged AC that is in it has without a doubt more waste in it than you can imagine.........These companies do actually research this stuff....It's not made up on a whim.

Unfortunately, the biobag has been left in there for so long, you're in a very precarious situation...One that may in fact be a no win situation......Rotting material is because of DECAY....Any time something decays it is not beneficial to have that in your tank.

Sorry if I sound rude and I realize I am relatively new to this hobby, but I have been doing TONS of research on the importance of water quality and how to acheive it and maintain it............As a result, I personally change my biobag every month and have had only one small bacteria bloom which went away in a couple of days.

I hope you don't lose any fish over this. I know you're working hard to make sure that doesn't happen.

Isabella

You don't sound rude at all Vin, lol! As I have said, any comments and advice are greatly appreciated. I thank you for your trying to help Once again, I understand what you're saying and I agree. But how can there be chemicals and dirt in my old bio-bag when I rinse it VERY OFTEN precisely to make sure there is nothing in there except the beneficial bacteria. The reason for 50% daily water changes is also to keep the water free of chemicals and clean. A fry tank is not the same as a regular fish tank. In a regular fish tank some chemicals and even high concentrations of nitrate won't hurt adult fish - while these two would outright kill baby angels. I don't believe I have any toxic chemicals in my water or in my filter. If it were so, my angels wouldn't grow healthy and they would be dead long ago. I have actually learned that AC or charcoal are not that effective for a very long time here on Fish Lore, and I trust this website. It is also here that I have learned that one does not need to change filter media every month as "the manufacturer advises". I may be wrong since I am not a scientist and you most definitely know more about these matters than I do. Therefore I wouldn't want to assert something that I am not fluent in. Yet I have to say, I don't think AC or charcoal are that important IF YOU DO 50% DAILY water changes. AC or charcoal may be very helpful if one doesn't do a lot of water changes. But then again, from what i have read on Fish Lore also, is that AC or charcoal expire very fast - so that means one would have to change the bio-bag every week! That would ensure the killing of fish such as baby angels, lol, since they're sensitive even to tiniest amounts of chemicals or nitrate (not to mention ammonia or nitrite!). Anyway, I'd like to know what Carol thinks about this. This is not to say I doubt your judgment Vin I'm just curious what Carol or Gunnie think, because this is a matter concerning a fry tank, not a regular fish tank. Anyway, enough already! LOL

Rose, I'd try to wrap the old bio-bag in some stocking, but it's really so old and it needs to be changed already. However, if it is by far safer to do than changing the bio-bag altogether, then maybe I should still keep the old bio-bag? Carol? What do you think?

SORRY everyone for all of my questions! I know I am a pain in ... oops LOL

P.S. One last thing! VIN: You mentioned "leaching chemicals" - I really doubt my filter is leaching any chemicals into the water. Even if it were, I change 50% of water daily, so there is no chance my baby angels will be hurt. And Lastly, I actually think, Vin, that the worse thing is to thow out a bio-bag full of beneficial bacteria rather than not having effective AC or charcoal.

vin

Isabella....Clogged carbon - no matter how much you rinse it will still retain the chemicals and impurities it once trapped.....what happens is the pores in the carbon get so clogged that the water no longer flows through them, but over them....despite the rinsing. Which is why they tell you to change it rather than rinse it....

I was only relaying information based on the many articles and reports I have been reading up on. Not one says to reuse the mechanical filtration media. They all say to change it because of the possibility of leaching harmful chemicals and bacteria - the kind that don't show on tests - back into your water.

Polishing your water can only be done effectively by properly filtering the water. If you are using a mechanical filter that incorporates a floss and AC material, the best way to acheive clean, chemical free water is to change it as recommended. I forget where I read it, but one article said that everything can be fine one time, but the next time POOF! Everything you worked hard to acheive can be thrown completely off track because you didn't follow up on routine maintenance in addition to the water changes.

I will agree that this is enough on the topic, but with all due respect to those on these boards - would strongly encourage you to read outside the articles I've posted in the other topics. They will without a doubt open your eyes and perhaps clear up a lot of misconceptions.

Isabella

Thanks Vin. I will then do more reading because as I have said, I am not an expert. But just tell me Vin, do you think that with 50% water changes every single day for 2 months, there are chemicals in that water? The angels basically have new water every day, there is no old water whatsoever.

Imagine Vin that you suddenly get a batch of baby angels and all you have is a mature filter at the time. It's a fact that even nitrate can be deadly for baby angels, not to mention nitrite and ammonia. What do you do Vin: risk killing your baby angels by removing a colonized filter medium, or keep the old filter medium and rinse it well all the time while doing 50% daily water changes, until angels are old enough for a filter medium change? I'd just like to know what you would personally do.

Once and for all, Vin, Carol, Gunnie, and all the rest interested: is it a "myth" that changing filter media every month is not necessary? For we all need to know the correct answer to this if our fish are to be healthy and if our tanks are to be maintained properly. It is an important bit of information and every fish keeper needs to know the answer to this. I am now confused what the answer should be. Can somebody please help me sort that out?

chickadee

Maybe as long as the sponge part of the filter is left intact, which is where the bacteria is located. Perhaps, with baby fish you can change the whole bag and be okay. I did a change one time and just left the old filter (or part of it float in the tank for a few days wrapped in a stocking to help put a few of the old bacteria since I didn't have room for it in the chamber.) You may be have feelings about doing this though since you have baby fish, mine were for the most part mature. And I did not include any of the carbon, just the pad part. It only took about about 3 days and I never had a spike of anything. (Of course, my Nitrates ALWAYS run between 20 to 30 so there is no way to tell about them.

Rose

Isabella

Rose, I would completely understand changing carbon ONLY, and leaving the bio-bag and sponge. Because in a Whisper Tetra 10 filter, more of the bacteria are in the bio-bag than in the sponge (the sponge is way too small to house enough bacteria for the whole tank). But throwing out a bio-bag from a fry tank is like killing the fry. Yet what Vin asserts is that I have chemicals in that bio-bag and in my water EVEN THOUGH I do 50% daily water changes and rinse the bio-bag every few days.

Vin, please read these threads:
http://www.fishlore.com/Forum/index.php?topic=727.0
http://www.fishlore.com/Forum/index.php?topic=683.0

According to what you say Vin, the advice in the above threads contains FALSE information.

vin

Isabella -

I guess I should have asked - do you have any sort of substrate in your fry tank? If so, the sponge and the substrate will likely house enough bacteria.....Whisper is the one who maintains NOT to change or wash the sponge for that very reason. They do tell you to replace the bioBag every month......

Also, I think the part that you are missing is that the old, worn out carbon doesn't filter any harmful bacteria that may now be lodged in there....Bacteria that doesn't show up in chemical tests but can have long term effects on the fish......down the road to shortened life spans.....In addition, nitrates are adsorbed by activated carbon which helps to keep them in check.....My nitrates never exceed 10. Old AC will not filter out nitrates but rather the excess will just wash over them and back into the tank...The AC helps to keep nitrates in check.

I just changed my AC bioBag on Friday and the water is crystal clear. it appears as if the fish are floating, that's how clear my water is. No tinting, no odors, no traces of any chemicals in my water with the exception of the nitrate count which is consistently at 10 or less........

I respect what Gunnie and Butterfly have said in those threads, however....I respectfully disagree when it comes to BioBags that contain activated carbon.... After reading publications and researching the benefits of using AC and biobag type filter packs..........The general statement that activated carbon is non effective after a couple of days, is in fact very misleading and inaccurate. In order for AC to adsorb it has to be left open and exposed to the air. It is not like a sponge or baking soda where it will absorb just by being in the sealed box.......The key is to close the box tightly and keep your biobags or cartridges in their sealed polybags......and rinse the new bag or cartridge before putting it into the tank to avoid a carbon shower!

Never rinse or replace the sponge unless the sponge rots away...and even then put a new one with a portion of the old one...But replace the BioBag? - You betcha...that's what filters and polishes the water to a sparkle....Otherwise all you're doing is moving waste wound in the water column as there is nothing to trap any impurities or solid waste breakdown. All the sponge does is provide a place for the bacteria to live. It's too porous to trap anything else effectively...There's nothing that I have read that can convince me otherwise......I've read yours. You might want to try reading these.....I strongly suggest the last link......the articles by Greenfield and Straughan are particularly good.

http://www.marineland.com/products/m.../Carbon_QA.pdf
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From Practical Fishkeeping Magazine

How often should I replace my carbon?

Activated carbon removes certain chemicals from the water via a process called adsorption.

Activated carbon and carbon-impregnated pouches and pads have a limited lifespan of around two to eight weeks, and if left in the aquarium too long, there's a risk that they could leach chemicals back into the tank via a process called re-adsorption.

Check with the manufacturer to see how often the carbon needs to be changed as the lifespan may be linked to quality.
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http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...%20carbon.html

0morrokh

I was too lazy to read all the posts of what other people answered to Isabella's question about filter media changing, but here's what I say: The filter media that does the mechanical and biological filtration can be left in as long as you want to. In fact, I would guess changing it too often is harmful as you are continually losing your bacteria. However, it will eventually need to be replaced when it gets too clogged and slows the water.
The carbon, on the other hand, only lasts a certain anount of time. It adsorbs chemicals, but once it is 'full' it will start leaching them back into the water, which basically defeats the purpose. However, I am still not clear as to the exact lifespan of carbon.
If possible, the best thing to do is to replace the carbon more often but leave in the media as long as you can.

Isabella

Vin, it seems this thread will be the longest one in Fish Lore history, lol!

But just answer these questions for me:

1) You suddenly get a batch of angelfish fry to raise and all you have is a Whisper Tetra mature filter. Baby angels are very sensitive to nitrate (not to mention the obvious ammonia and nitrite). Nitrifying bacteria are what is necessary to keep the water free of ammonia and nitrite. Nitrate is removed by frequent water changes. So the question is: in such a situation, do you remove the bio-bag (which has far more nitrifying bacteria than does the tiny Whisper Tetra sponge) and thereby risk killing baby angels; or do you hold on to the bio-bag until the angles are old enough to change the bio-bag and handle the possible ammonia and/or nitrite spike? Keep in mind, that during this time you're doing 50% daily water changes that remove all nitrate and chemicals from the water (even if carbon isn't removing nitrate, you are).

2) Is it possible for a tank which has 50% daily water changes to contain nitrate and other toxic chemicals? If so, please explain how as well as which chemicals. Keep in mind that the bio-bag (not the sponge) is rinsed frequently to get rid of toxic and rotting debris.

0morrokh

With daily 50% water changes I don't see how much of anything could get in the water.
But I just realized, I think you have the same filter as me...can't you just dump out the carbon and put in new carbon without having to replace the bag?

Isabella

Omorrokh, I could do that if the bio-bag wasn't tearing apart! LOL That is why I need to replace the bio-bag

0morrokh

Oh yeah... :P
Have you replaced it yet?

Isabella

I just got an OK from Carol, lol, and will shortly go do my 50% water change and replace the bio-bag. I will put the largest possible piece of the old bio-bag between the sponge and the new bio-bag Pray that there is no ammonia and/or nitrite spike !!!