Isabella

Hello everyone I have a question most likely for Butterfly or Gunnie, however if anyone knows the answer please share it with me. Or I should rather state that it's more of an advice that I am seeking.

I have 11 angelfish fry in my 10 gallon tank. They're about 2 months old and almost an inch in length (those largest ones, that is; because some are smaller than that). I've had an established filter in that tank long before the angels hatched, so when they hatched they had perfect water. The water is still good, as I do a lot of water changes, et cetera.

I have Whisper Tetra filter in that tank (for a 10G tank of course). The problem is that the bio-bag in the filter has been there for a long time (I'd say for 5-6 months) - I've been just rinsing it and keeping all the good bacteria for as long as I could. Especially with baby angels I didn't want to throw the bag out, as even a mini-cycle could be dangerous for baby fish.

Now, the bio-bag is so old that it's literally statring to tear apart. I want to replace it with a new one but I am afraid that if I do this, there will be a mini-cycle that will hurt my baby angels. But this bag seriously needs to be replaced because soon it won't even be able to filter the water from its debris. So my question is, what is the safest way to replace a bio-bag in a tank with 2-month old baby angels?

I know I can take a piece of the established bio-bag and put it in the filter together with the new bio-bag so that the beneficial bacteria colonize the filter faster. However, even with that there will most likely be a mini-cycle, right?

Any comments will be greatly appreciated

fish_r_friend

you could put the new filter floss in front of the old floss for a week or 2 then change the floss on the filter frame putting some of the old floss in to the new floss

vin

Change the BioBag altogether....The activated carbon in the BioBag is long past expired. The AC in the biobag is what filters the chemical impurities out of the water (waste, gasses, excess nitrates, etc) and loses it's useful life after a while....Whisper recommends changing the BioBag once a month or when the water stops flowing through the filter.

The black sponge material in the filter is what houses the bacteria....All your doing is retaining extra waste materials and recycling the impurities in the water as the AC can no longer absorb them......So you're not really doing your angels any good anyway.

I've just gotten through doing a ton of research on this very subject and everything I've read says to replace these filter cartridges at least once a month just for the sake of refreshing the activated carbon alone.

You may experience a bacteria bloom, (I did last month) but a couple of water changes will help to clear that up. I did 3 - one every other day in my 15g and the water was crystal clear within a couple of days.

fish_r_friend

vin the thing is she has baby angelfish that need the best water quality they can have and she cant afford to go threw a bacteria bloom

Butterfly

Isabella is there room to put a new filter bag in with the old ? if their is just do that for a couple of days. If there isn't just put a new one in and put as large a piece of the old one as possible in with the new one. I think you should be ok.
Carol

vin

What's worse? Bacteria bloom or toxic chemicals being reintroduced to the water As it is the filter bag is doing nothing right now....There is nothing removing the chemicals that the fish waste produces, nothing to keep the excessive nitrates in check and all it is doing is letting the harmful stuff in the water recirculate....

Now, I don't know if baby angels can handle the bacteria bloom or not, but by sword tail fry handled it just fine....If all of the other parameters are within range, I would think that suspended bacteria wouldn't matter since they are not toxic to the fish in the first place.

fish_r_friend

Swordtail fry are hardyer than Angelfish fry

vin

That's fine, but I still don't think that non toxic bacteria will harm them.....If the continually leaching chemicals that are being bypassed by the activated carbon haven't done anything to them by now, I don't see how the 'potential' bacterial bloom would.........At 2 months old? I wouldn't think so anyway.....

Butterfly

If the filter is changed completely without seeding there may be an ammonia spike. Even at two months angel fish fins are still developing. The spike can burn the fins and cause them to be deformed. Thats the reason for such frequent water changes for angel fry. Isabella is right on the money trying to be so careful.
Carol

0morrokh

I think Isabella has the same filter as I do, and I have tried sticking in the old media behind the new stuff but it just cloggs up the filter. So what I do is cut a piece of the old media (about 1/2 of one side of the bag) and put that behind it. I have never had any problems with ammonia spikes.

Isabella

Thank you all for suggestions.

Vin: while I understand what you're trying to say, I have to disagree with you. If I didn't have baby angels I'd be changing the media as often as I wanted. However, that's the whole point: you can't do that when you have baby angels. If I changed the filter media as I pleased, they'd be dead long ago (because, naturally, all the beneficial bacterial population would be removed). And there are no toxic chemicals in my tank nor in my filter Vin, because I change 50% of that water every single day and rinse the filter thoroughly every couple of days. Therefore it's impossible for chemicals to be in that water. If there were any chemicals in that water, at any point, baby angels would get sick and die. They're still alive. Vin, it is the bacteria that are the cornerstone of any filtration system -* you cannot be "regularly" removing them from a fry tank. Carbon or charcoal are in fact not even necessary - they expire as soon as a couple of days (not exceeding one week even). What expired carbon can provide at most is more surface area for the beneficial bacteria to colonize. In regular circumstances, yes, you'd need to change the bio-bag more often, because you don't do 50% daily water changes in a regular tank. BUT, baby fish tanks are a completely different story. With so many water changes, they're far safer even without carbon, than regular fish tanks with mature fish. My water doesn't even have any nitrate. So, I think I did them only good by holding on to my old bio-bag for as long as I could. Lastly, Vin, the bio-bag provides more surface area for bacteria to colonize than does the small piece of sponge. And one more thing, Vin (lol, sorry, I talk too much!), it's actually not necessary to be changing filter media every month, "as the manufacturer recommends". They recommend it because if people change media less often, they will make less money since no one will be buying their filter media. Changing filter media often is not exactly beneficial to fish since by doing this one removes all the beneficial bacteria - which are what is most necessary for filtration. With frequent water changes and good bottom cleaning as well as frequent filter rinsing - no chemicals will accumulate and water will be very clean and safe.

Carol, Omorrorh, and Fish_r_friend: I will replace the old bio-bag then, since it is tearing apart (if it were not, I'd still keep it). And I will put (together with the new bio-bag) as large a piece of the old one as I can. I'll put the largest piece possible that will still allow for a reasonable water flow. So, Carol, with a large piece of the old bio-bag and with bacteria on tank walls and on tank bottom, will there still be a spike? You see, that's what I am afraid of. I don't want my babies to get burned or hurt in any way. I will not do anything until you have confirmed that what I am about to do is safe and will not hurt my fish.

Thank you all once again - I really appreciate your help.

0morrokh

I know the question wasn't for me but I don't think there will be a problem with ammonia. The tank is established and has lots of bacteria in places besides the filter media. Plus you are putting a piece of old media in to start the colony. But I know if those were my baby Angels I'd be very worried about it. Remember you can always do a nice big water change if you are getting any hint of ammonia readings. And keep up the good work! I don't know how you can manage daily 50% water changes. Your Angels will be so beautiful!

Isabella

Thank you Omorrokh. I'll definitely do huge water changes if I detect any ammonia or nitrite (though I hope I won't detect anything of the sort!).

Carol, I forgot to add something to my previous post. I will try to put the whole old bag with the new one inside the filter. However, Carol, I am afraid the filter won't be able to get a good water flow with so much material inside of it. So, if it does not work, then I will cut a large piece off the bag and put it together with the new bag. How long after putting the new bag in, can I remove the old piece from the filter?

ncje

Personally for a fry tank ..... I have had many... I will only ever use sponge filters. They are by far the best option in fry tank filtration. I successfully raised over 1000 discus fry, another 200 various mbuna fry, not to mention uncountable hartwegi and bifasciatum fry just using these. Ok but that doesnt solve your problem.... what I would do is place the old media in the end of a stocking to keep it together and tie it off and just pop it back in after a mild tank water rinse.

Butterfly

Isabella it will be fine just putting in the piece of old filter media when you install the new one. You are doing such a good job!!! But the babies are growing up and we the extended family need to see some new pics
Carol

Isabella

Ncje, you're 100% right. The reason I have a Whisper Tetra filter in my fry tank is that the babies were completely unexpected and I was totally unprepared. All I had was the extra 10G tank, airpump and heater, and this very filter which was already established (because I was keeping the 10G tank cycled at all times just in case I'd need it for example for sick fish). Since I didn't expect to have these babies, I never had any sponge filter ready. The Whisper Tetra was an only option at that time. What I did was I put a piece of stocking over the intake tube and decreased the water flow to gentle. And the babies made it But I agree, sponge filters are the best for fry tanks. If I ever raise another batch of angels again, I'll get a sponge filter for sure. They're just much safer.

Carol, I am afraid 2 bio-bags (old and new one) will not fit inside the filter box. So what I will do is I'll cut a piece of the old bio-bag the largest size possible that will cover the front of the new bio-bag (I don't know if I am expressing myself clearly - let me know if you're confused about what I'm trying to explain, lol). This cutout piece will be placed between the sponge and the new bio-bag (if you know how a Whisper Tetra filter looks like, you'll know what I'm talking about). So, Carol, it will be safe to do, right? As for the pictures, I'll try to take some new ones for you

chickadee

Have you tried putting your old bio-bag into a piece of nylon stocking or something to hold it together and see if you can make it last a little longer until the babies are a little older? Maybe this is a silly suggestion, but I thought it might work. If you don't think the water would flow through that well you could cut a small piece out and let it just hold the edges together.

Rose

vin

Isabella,

I won't debate you on the life of carbon, but would rather direct you to all of the research done by experts that I have provided that prove your very statements incorrect......I would refer you to the "filtration questions" thread and the therad that asks about cycling with or without activated carbon and changing the filter media and why it's done....There are links to articles that relate directly to that subject alone.....

In fact, the carbon you have in there may not allow toxic chemicals that show up on routine tests, but will in fact allow other bacteria and chemicals to leach back into your water that can cause long term organ damage to your fish through a process called re-adsorbtion....without you even knowing it.

I completely understand you have fry.....I also completely understand where the beneficial bacteria live.....And since those bacteria are not toxic to fish......Part of the reason you are changing 50% of your water daily is without a doubt because your mechanical filtration is not working properly in addition to the desire to maintain water quality.....The filter media other than the biobag should have enough beneficial bacteria in it to support the colony itself which is another reason why it is safe to change the biobag.........The biobag and the clogged AC that is in it has without a doubt more waste in it than you can imagine.........These companies do actually research this stuff....It's not made up on a whim.

Unfortunately, the biobag has been left in there for so long, you're in a very precarious situation...One that may in fact be a no win situation......Rotting material is because of DECAY....Any time something decays it is not beneficial to have that in your tank.

Sorry if I sound rude and I realize I am relatively new to this hobby, but I have been doing TONS of research on the importance of water quality and how to acheive it and maintain it............As a result, I personally change my biobag every month and have had only one small bacteria bloom which went away in a couple of days.

I hope you don't lose any fish over this. I know you're working hard to make sure that doesn't happen.