prairielilly

I have to replace my filter on my 20g (HOB style) and as I prefer things on the quiet side I'm looking at internal filters. What I'm confused about with many internal filters I've read up on is that it will state how many US gallons it's rated for, then give the flow rate, which is often substantially less turnovers per hour than HOB filters. For example I'm looking at the Eheim Aquaball for my 20g tank. My hob had a flow rate of 150 GPH (7.5X tank volume). To get this rate I'd have to get the 2210 model of the Eheim (145 gph), which is rated for a 42g tank! So should I go smaller? This particular filter is sort of like a miniature canister that sits inside the tank, so is this primarily because there's lots more media in these kinds of filters than in hobs, and they filter more efficiently? It has 3 levels, that I'd fill with sponge, floss and biomax or equivalent, plus a venturi valve. I'm also planning on adding a sponge filter to the tank's airstone, if that affects anything.

prairielilly

...anyone?

Red1313

I'm afraid that I don't know much about that in regards to filtering. Usually I just go by what the box says...
Hope someone else can help you out though. Good Luck.

Alessa

Well, it is recommended to have the 10X filtration... but I have found myself that it also depends on the fish that is currently stocking your tank, the amount of fish, and the type of fish (big bioload, low bioload).

Dozey

Of course this in only my opinion but I feel flow rate is extremely important regardless of how much filter media a given filter holds. It’s my thought that if floating debris never makes it to your filter it will end up decaying on the bottom of your tank regardless of how many stages your filter has. I have a five stage canister filter that will filter even extremely small particles from the water IF they make it there.

Floating debris (excess food, fish waste, etc.) will quickly make its way to the substrate if there is a low flow rate. IMO filter manufactures greatly exaggerate the performance of their filters.

The filter I run on my 10 gallon q-tank is rated for a 50 gallon tank (200gph). As we know pristine water is utmost important for ill fish. With an exchange rate of 20 times an hour almost nothing (debris) makes it to the aquarium floor.

In my 35 gallon I have an exchange rate of 12x an hour. Vacuuming for me is more of a ritual then a necessity as even if I should happen to miss a week and vacuum on the second week I vacuum up very little debris.

Hope my opinion make your decision easier.

prairielilly

It do. Thx all

Thinking I'll go with the bigger one (175 gph). The only thing I worried about with that (aside from the $80 price tag!) was the flow might be too strong for my fishies (provided I find out how to fix the camallanus issue, it will continue to be a dwarf gourami, cherry barbs and panda cories). Although all of them play in the current from the hob.

I like the idea of this Eheim filter as it's cylindrical and pulls in water from its entire surface. It looks kinda funny, sort of like a sports bottle, but I don't like the Eheim hob as there's no way to remove the carbon from the cartridges and they seem like they'd be hard to sub with homemade media, plus there's that 'quiet internal filter' idea. I also looked at one by PennPlax but it only pulls in water from the bottom.

Has anyone else noticed though how low flow rate internal filters are touted as being able to keep larger tanks clean than hobs? that seems odd to me (and misleading).

Dozey

I can’t comment on internal filters as I’ve never experimented with them. But as for flow rate I should have mentioned that I keep neon and cardinal tetras and guppies. Currently I have two female guppies and four cardinal tetras in my q-tank and they handle the 20x exchange rate just fine and even seem to enjoy the occasional swim in the outlet stream.

And just to add, the fish aren’t sick just being quarantined before being added to my 35g.

But you are right flow rate could be an issue for some fish. As I understand betas don’t appreciate much current. I’m considering using my q-tank as a fry tank and will certainly have to rethink the current 20x rates. Although maybe not! With a lot of décor the current can certainly be disrupted while still keeping up the exchange rate.

I’m including a picture of my 35 as your setup could be very different. Obviously we don’t want a whirl pool for our fish but décor will certainly help to defuse that.

And IMHO you’ve made a good choice.

naturalgravel.jpg

prairielilly

That's a really nice tank you've got there Dozey

No longer worried the outflow will bug them (no bettas in this tank. One betta in a 3g tank, and he's getting a low-tech box filter pretty soon, no flow issues whatsoever w. that!)

I thought of another concern though. The filter is cylindrical and has thin vertical slots all over it, which allows it to pull in water all over its surface area and so effectively draw water through all its media (good stuff). So in a high flow rate hob, the intake is just a little thing, easy for the fish to avoid. In what I'm considering, the whole thing is the intake. What's the potential of finding some poor cherry barb pasted onto the side of the filter do you think?

Edit: forgot Fishlore's now highlighting words...the link on the word 'filter' is mine, it should go to a description page on the Eheim website.

Dozey

I don’t see that as a problem at all. As you mentioned a HOB filters have small intakes where as the filter you are looking at spreads the intake over a very large area reducing the suction in any given area.

To try to explain… Lets say we have a pickup tube with on hole in it and a 100gph filter. That one hole would be drawing in 100g of water per hour. If we drilled 3 more equal size holes in the intake tube (4 in total) then each hole would only be drawing in 25g of water per hour. I hope I’ve explained this.

And thanks for pointing out your link as I did brush it off as just another “auto link”. A feature that I don’t care for much.

mlfly

I have to tell you I found the internal filter was lacking. The tank was clear but it bypassed the filtration after a few days. Once I put an Aqua Clear 20 adn regulated the flow, I felt a lot more comfortable. I use Bio-Max, Carbon and the Foam. Tank is pristine.

Red1313

Hmmm... I've got a stingray filter and while I like it I can't say that my gavel is pristine I can't say if it's due to the filter or the snail over population.
One thing to be aware of with the internal is what the out-put is like. My stingray could quite happily turn my 5 gal into a whirl pool... and I wouldn't use it in a smaller tank then that... just a heads up.

prairielilly

All very good points, thank you. Dozey you're right about the suction being less over an area, I should have thought of that. mlfly, was it THIS internal that you tried? or another? I've read similar about some different models but not this one yet.

See the main reason for all of this is an overwhelming frustration with the Marineland biowheel hob for many reasons. In the last few days it sounds like a lawnmower and all my little 'tricks' are proving ineffective at shutting it up, so I'm looking to replace it seeing as I likely have to re-cycle the 20g anyways. I got an Aquaclear hob with another starter kit and hated it, it was extremely loud; I'm about to attempt to return it for store credit only. I have an Aquatech 5-15 that is almost completely silent, but I don't know that it does an exemplary job at filtration. I've looked extensively at the Stingray but don't care for it aesthetically and don't like how little media it has (same media issue with the Fluval and Elite internals. I'm extremely picky about this sort of thing). I tried the PennPlax Cascade internal filter, which only pulls in water from the bottom, and its 70gph in my 3g turned my betta upside down in 5 seconds flat; you can lower the flow rate on that one but then it starts to hum - loudly. I've looked at every hob and internal filter available in the stores here and online and can't find anything with that magic combination of 1) extreme quietness, 2) excellent filtration, 3) ability to use any media I choose, 4) adjustable output, 5) tons of media. Except this Eheim. I like that it's a well known and trusted brand name, then again so are Hagen and Marineland I guess I could pay another $50 and get a teeny little canister filter, but frankly this is expensive enough. Ahh, the search for the perfect filter....

Current thought is to try the thing and just make sure I'm well aware of the store's return policy.

Dozey

I can so relate to your quest to find the perfect filter and the cost associated with buying filters that just don’t measure up. I’ve got a lot more filters then I have aquariums. I eventually broke down and dropped $300 on a canister filter. I wish I had done this in the beginning as it would have saved me a lot of $$$ experimenting.

5 stages that can be filled as I see fit, quiet and requires very little maintenance. And when I say quiet I mean absolutely quiet. I actually have to put my hand on it to know if it’s running.

I can’t speak for your LFS but mine will only replace a used defective filter and will NOT take them back if dissatisfied. Best of luck with your quest!

prairielilly

...erg...now you've got me considering canisters ...Dozey you're a bad influence! (j/k)

Dozey

Bad Dozey, I hate when I do that. But yeah one of my biggest mistakes I've made in fish keeping is trying to save a dollar.

Since I have $200 worth of HOB filters sitting unused and spent $300 dollars for my canisters I guess it would be safe to say that my canister filter cost me $500 for a $300 dollar filter.

prairielilly

I believe it's called 'enabling'....

Well if I'd take my own advice from the other thread too, I'd 'spend the money to have one less thing to worry about and get the best I can afford'. Of course I need a new filter and a new light and some meds all at the same time...ah they're worth it. When my cat cost me $900 I had to swallow hard but I paid it. Love the little beastie.

Thinking I'll go to the store tomorrow and interrogate sales clerks (that's always fun ) seeing as I atm know relatively little about canisters.

Still may end up with the weird sports bottle thing!

Dozey

One thing I would recommend is “zero by-pass”. What this means? Many canister filters will by-pass the media if it becomes clogged. This maintains circulation but provides no filtration. “Zero by-pass” simply means that regardless if the media becomes clogged the filter will not by-pass the media. Flow rate will suffer greatly but this is your best indication when you need to do some cleaning.

How do I know when my filter media needs cleaning? I stick my hand in front of the return, if the current is good my filter is good; if the current isn’t so good it’s time to clean the filter. With a by-pass type filter it’s guess work.

Also many canister filters have valves for shutting down water flow to the intake and return lines for maintenance, a pain in my opinion. With mine I lift a handle and remove the lines automatically sealed.

My filter is a Marineland C-series. I’m really happy with it.
http://www.marinelandc-series.com/

I only maintain my filter monthly and that’s only because I decided to use carbon. If not for the carbon many canister users go up to 6 months between maintenance. What’s that worth?

cerianthus

Marsha,
How bad is the noise? What have you tried to reduce/eliminate the noise? i dont remember HOB being any louder than canister?
It seems you got bitten pretty badly by the Notorious BUG!
Dont waste your money on internal filters, IMO.
LMK. Maybe I can help w/ noise issue!

ccb04

I feel your filter frustration. I'm a fan of Aquaclears despite getting a couple of noisy one's, including a model 20. Those were of course returned. However, my AC 50 was much quieter than the Penguin 150 I tried ... and as I mentioned in your other thread, I have no problem running it with the top off which makes it even quieter.

I can't recall a filter model (be it canister, HOB, internal, or otherwise) ... that I haven't seen something negative about on a forum, in a user review, etc.

Not sure I'd run an internal as my primary filter on a 20 gal regardless of stated GPH. If you're considering double filtration (you mentioned the Aqua ball and a sponge filter) ... why not consider running a HOB AND the Eheim Aqua ball? You said that from a noise standpoint you don't mind the Aqua Tech (which is made by Marineland and essentially seems to be same/similar to the old style Penguin minus the biowheel). You could upsize to an Aqua Tech 10-20 (120 GPH IIRC) or maybe the 20-40 (160 GPH IIRC) and pair it with the smallest Aqua ball (model 2206), which is rated 32-100 GPH. You can order the Aqua ball off of Petsmart's website for $25.

This would give you.....

- Better than 10x turnover with a combined max of 220 GPH or 260 GPH depending on the Aqua Tech model. And as mentioned, the Eheim is adjustable, so the GPH could be raised or lowered.

- Filtration on both sides of the tank ... and a backup should one unit fail.

- A secondary filter that also functions as a ball in socket powerhead to direct water movement as you choose. Nice for circulation, improved gas exchange if directed to agitate the surface, etc.

- A little piece of mind ... as both Wal Mart and Petsmart have good return policies.

prairielilly

Nice We think alike, I've actually considered this exact scenario. I had thought the Aquatechs were made by Hagen though? not that it matters.

I've got a lot of scenarios to choose from atm. Really leaning away from having the internal as primary, mostly bc I don't want a big plastic thing in my tank. Still considering various hob's, still thinking about canisters. I'm currently medicating all fish so I will wait til that's all done with so's not to stress them more. I like the idea of getting 'something' of really high quality that I won't have to replace for a very, very long time. Every time I state what I'm looking for it seems to point directly at canisters, so I guess we'll see. I'm still researching and I've got time to do it...

ccb04

We definitely think alike, lol. I've also been considering a canister ... specifically, the Eheim classic 2215. The Classic's have been around for years and still get the job done. Two others I've considered are the Eheim Ecco and also a Rena Filstar XP1 utilizing their Smart Heater as the intake.

The Aqua Tech's are made by Marineland ... pretty much the old style Penguin minus the Biowheel. Matter of fact, I've read that they can even be retrofitted with a properly sized biowheel (not sure though).

I'm still happy with my Aquaclears though. Another thing I like about the Aquaclears, is that the models 20, 30, 50, and 70 ... all share the same motor, with the difference being impeller size. What I currently have on my 10gallon Q-tank is also an AC 50 ... but with an AC 30 impeller installed. That gives me the larger media size of the AC 50 ... while the 50's larger output area and the 30's smaller impeller combine to create a more gentle current in the 10 gal. tank that still produces 150 GPH (or 15x turnover). I figured that high turnover coupled with a more gentle current would be a solid combo for sick/injured fish (or even stressed newbies for that matter). This also allows me to adjust the flow down to 50 GPH at feeding time or in cases of a fish being severely ill/injured and having a difficult time swimming.

I think if I did go with a filter other than the Aquaclear ... I'd probably go with an Eheim Classic canister at this point.

prairielilly

I'm trying to figure out the whole canister thing, and after reading who knows how many descriptions and reviews I was thinking of (wait for it) the Eheim Classic 2215. Second choices were the Ecco or the Rena Filstar (getting a little freaky?) I'm just really influenced by the 'long history' and 'we invented canister filters' ideas with Eheim (also seems to be a really good product in its own right). I don't want to rule out anything though until I've learned more. Dozey makes a really good case for the Marineland C-series, gotta admit it. I just am having a leetle teeny bit of trouble getting over the idea that everything I've ever bought from Marineland has broken down. Within six months. (Except for the Aquatech...I am pleasantly surprised there). Am I just unlucky - possibly (likely?) but if I'm shelling out that much I want to be certain sure! So I made a poll on it for FishLore, asking everyone which one they like and why. I'm looking forward to learning lots from that!

ccb04

A little freaky indeed, lol.

Here's what I like about the aforementioned canisters.....

- Eheim 2215: This is a 'classic' that's stood the test of time, from a performance and durability standpoint in particular. This is also one of the very few filters I haven't really read/heard anything bad about ... and given how long it's been around, that's saying something. This would very likely be my top choice.

- Eheim Ecco: Another Eheim that seems to get few negative comments/reviews ... and seems suited to smaller tank applications. But as mentioned above, if going Eheim ... it would likely be a classic for my situation.

- Rena Filstar XP1: I've seen more positive than negative ... and like the price point. I also like the fact that their smart heater can be utilized as the intake.

I really like the Marineland C-Series ... and was looking at a C-160. That was until I started reading about the leaking issues, which some reviewers have made mention that Marineland has said it's a product defect and they ship new parts when contacted. They do have excellent customer service. My favorite Marineland product by far is the Visi-Therm Stealth heaters.

I really like the looks, media configuration, etc... of the C-Series. And minus some reported leaking issues, they are said to perform very well. If the reported leaking problems were nullified, I'd definitely consider it as one of my favorites without question, and can certainly see why Dozey likes it.

Dozey

Just because you may want to know. When I purchased my C-220 it was packaged with a spare set of gaskets.

Years ago I worked as an automotive air conditioning tech. and as I remember about 1 in a 1000 rubber gaskets would have slight defects (not visible to the eye) and I would have to replace them. That is perhaps what Marineland has run into with the C-series and is why they are now shipping them with spare gaskets. Any problem that I’ve ever had with a Marineland product they have handled extremely well, shipping out a replace usually the next day.

I should also mention that the gaskets used on the C-series are very standard automotive rubber gaskets and could be found at any automotive parts store or hardware store for likely around 30¢.

Dozey

I should maybe also bring up some other points about canister filters in general. What a dream come true. I maintain mine once a month but only because I use carbon in it. I’ve read threads from others that go as long as 6 months between maintenance. For maintenance you simply disconnect the supply and return line pick up the canister and carry it to a sink.

Unlike HOB cartridges you never end up dripping water down the back of the tank or all over the hood or all over your living room carpet. They are absolutely mess free when it comes to maintenance.

And then there is the appearance factor to consider. There’s no unsightly canister in your aquarium, no big box hanging on the back of your tank, just a thin pickup tube and a slim return tube. Both are easily hidden by plants (real or fake). For me at least the appearance of my aquarium is very important. As much as I enjoy watching my fish my q-tank is hideous to look at where my main tank is an aquatic garden in my living room.

And then there is the noise factor. There is no noise (at least with mine), my aquarium is dead silent. How peaceful it is to watch my fish swim about their aquatic garden in absolute silence.

Marsha, once you go canister you will wonder why you waited so long.

IMO

prairielilly

I repeat that Dozey you are a baaadd influence

Found out I'm getting a tax refund. Therefore I am also getting a canister. Once this worm issue is solved/dealt with. To go from buzzing that can be heard outside to 'absolute silence'....

Everyone has different criteria and a different product that fits them very well. Not too sure which one is mine yet. I'm on my way out right now for errands (and the first official canister-scouting trip).

Dozey

You shun me now… but you’ll thank me later.

I still kick myself when I think about all the money I spent on HOB’s trying to find the “right one”. Wow it really cost me a lot of money trying to save a few bucks.

I remember (not all that long ago) using a claw-hammer to open (mangle) a coffee can (I was jonesing for a coffee) and the 30 can openers I bought from the dollar store wouldn’t open the can. Well now I have a twenty dollar can opener that would take the top off of a 50 gallon steel drum.

prairielilly

I have decided to buy a canister, just not practical right now as I need to get this camallanus mess sorted...got convinced canisters are the best option. Just need to decide which one is right for my setup. The prime contender atm is (of course) the most expensive one available. You do make a very good case for the ML C-series, but I've had very bad luck with Marineland. I've had very bad luck with a certain make of car as well, and when it came time to buy my next car I didn't even consider that same make, even though some others were very vocal advocates of it. ('Invested' in said car, and have never been happier )

Dozey

If you do your home work and buy a decent canister I’m sure you will never consider a HOB again.

When I was young I had under ground filters, that was enough to keep me out of fish keeping for 20 years. HOB filters were sure a lot better but still not a joy. My canister filter is a joy.

I am confident that you will enjoy yours as much as I enjoy mine!

How is the worm situation going?

prairielilly

Atm the worm situation is NOT good...nothing's working. I don't know if it's more humane to keep the DG around and let him continually re-infect everyone else, or to ...can't think about it yet. May end up moving the 4 cherry barbs and one remaining cory to the 10g, leaving my betta in the 3g and then sterilizing/starting over with the 20g and 5g. The 5g would likely get another betta, but I'm pretty reluctant to attempt a 'community tank' in the 20 again as I seem to hit a snag mid-stocking all the time (there were supposed to be more than 4 cherry barbs in there...just never made it there ) So now I'm considering goldfish (fantails specifically). Which would make a canister filter (and a very powerful one) a very good idea.