Another Driftwood thread :p

[Red1313]

I was reading another site that recomended freezing driftwood as a good way of "sterilizing" it.
What do you guys think of that idea?

[CHoffman]

I don't know if this goes for driftwood too. But I've read that freezing doesn't actually kill bacteria and icky's it only slows down there growth..That's why meat last longer in the freezer but still goes bad eventually.

[namehater]

i think CH hit the nail on the head

[Red1313]

I don't know if we're discussing the same sort of freezer.
In the fridge bacteria growth is slowed.
at -20 or -30*C
I don't think that much survives...
Could be wrong though.

[Llama]

As far as I know, bacteria in general can survive very low temperatures.

They form spores and just wait, so yes there are some bacteria which live on the peaks of mountains, waiting to be taken down some day.

I'd say no.

[KyWildFish]

Freezing is garbage. Many pathogenic bacteria can survive a freeze.

The reason that boiling works is warm moisture causes the cell to swell and burst or causes the proteins to de-nature and the cell stops functioning. Many types of bacteria can survive very low temperatures, these bacteria are called Psychrophiles or Cryophiles. These bacteria may even reproduce at very low temps. Yet another type of bacteria exists called a Spore Former. These bacteria will form a protective shell and can live in a sub-animated state for decades.
Your best bet is to boil it.

[sirdarksol]

Not all bacteria form spores, but that's unimportant. Most bacteria can survive freezing. Heck, a lot of multi-cellular things can survive freezing (ever buy frozen whole lobster? Wonder why they've got rubber bands around their claws? Consumers who set them out to thaw got injured when they woke up) and can usually survive temperatures well below freezing.

The reason more complex creatures die from freezing is because our complex systems can't function in the cold. Some of the more simple of the complex creatures, such as lobsters, can actually restart after having been frozen to full system shutdown, but, for most creatures, it takes too much energy to restart after freezing, and too much time is spent between "frozen" and "ideal" temps for the body to not degrade.

Bacteria, however, merely need to not rupture when the water in the cell freezes. Energy use, degradation, and replication all slow to a crawl, giving the bacteria a long, long time before it will die.

This is why restaurants can only use freezing as a method of "pausing" expiration of products. If something expires seven days from production, sits in the fridge for six days before being frozen, and is later thawed, it still has to be thrown out by the end of the day.

Ninja'd by KyWild.

[CHoffman]

Originally Posted by Red1313

I don't know if we're discussing the same sort of freezer.
In the fridge bacteria growth is slowed.
at -20 or -30*C
I don't think that much survives...
Could be wrong though.

I wouldn't trust raw hamburger a week after it's been in the fridge.It slowed it down but still a week isn't very long..I wouldn't trust that same hamburger in the freezer after 3 months..Much longer but still goes bad. Here is an article about it. http://www.wisegeek.com/how-long-wil...stay-fresh.htm

[Shaina]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Wonder why they've got rubber bands around their claws? Consumers who set them out to thaw got injured when they woke up

[KyWildFish]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

Not all bacteria form spores, but that's unimportant. Most bacteria can survive freezing. Heck, a lot of multi-cellular things can survive freezing (ever buy frozen whole lobster? Wonder why they've got rubber bands around their claws? Consumers who set them out to thaw got injured when they woke up) and can usually survive temperatures well below freezing.

The reason more complex creatures die from freezing is because our complex systems can't function in the cold. Some of the more simple of the complex creatures, such as lobsters, can actually restart after having been frozen to full system shutdown, but, for most creatures, it takes too much energy to restart after freezing, and too much time is spent between "frozen" and "ideal" temps for the body to not degrade.

Bacteria, however, merely need to not rupture when the water in the cell freezes. Energy use, degradation, and replication all slow to a crawl, giving the bacteria a long, long time before it will die.

This is why restaurants can only use freezing as a method of "pausing" expiration of products. If something expires seven days from production, sits in the fridge for six days before being frozen, and is later thawed, it still has to be thrown out by the end of the day.

Ninja'd by KyWild.

I wasnt saying they all are spore formers, most cryophiles aren't, but it should be stated that not all bacteria form spores (in fact most dont). I had forgotten about high order animals that can survive freezing like inverts and some amphibians. Good points.

Not quite ninja'd but close.

[sirdarksol]

KyWild, my spore comment was regarding the post above yours.

[meg1220]

What about the notion that boiling driftwood just provides a nice, sterile substrate for the growth of organisms already in the aquarium? I did boil both of my pieces of driftwood, and one of them grew a crop of nasty, smelly, translucent slime that got to be about an inch thick. I took it out, scrubbed it off, boiled it again, put it back, and the slime came back. I took it out and scrubbed the stuff off without boiling, and it hasn't come back. Still doesn't smell very good, though. What, exactly, are we trying to keep out of our aquariums by boiling (or, in this case, freezing) that isn't already present?

[sirdarksol]

The concern about sterilizing natural driftwood is that our fish are not accustomed to the bacteria and viruses that live in our local waterways.

The stuff that's already in our tank may be unsightly, but it's less likely to injure our fish, as they live around it anyway. Also, it usually can only survive for a relatively short time, since it can only consume the nutrients on the surface of the wood. Most people clean it off (without boiling, which might actually bring more of the nutrients to the surface of the wood) as it grows. Eventually, it just stops growing.

[CHoffman]

Ya I agree with SDS..Anything that starts growing on that driftwood was already in the tank to begin with. If you introduce something new to the tank by not boiling it you don't know the effects.

[sirdarksol]

Originally Posted by CHoffman

Ya I agree with SDS..Anything that starts growing on that driftwood was already in the tank to begin with. If you introduce something new to the tank by not boiling it...

...or baking it, or bleaching it, or doing something to sanitize it...

(It's been awhile since we've discussed the myriad methods of sanitizing driftwood, and wanted to throw a reminder that boiling isn't the only way... it's just the quickest.)

[CHoffman]

Very true SDS..Good point..I had a thread that was full of this info...and awesome links for driftwood..Here it is..http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aq...driftwood.html

[meg1220]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

The concern about sterilizing natural driftwood is that our fish are not accustomed to the bacteria and viruses that live in our local waterways.

The stuff that's already in our tank may be unsightly, but it's less likely to injure our fish, as they live around it anyway. Also, it usually can only survive for a relatively short time, since it can only consume the nutrients on the surface of the wood. Most people clean it off (without boiling, which might actually bring more of the nutrients to the surface of the wood) as it grows. Eventually, it just stops growing.

Okay, I see that point. But mightn't the quantity of an organism present also have some effect on the fish? As in, there might be a few individuals (bacteria, fungus, etc.) floating around with no effect on the fish, but if their population explodes when given the opportunity with the addition of something to grow on, in this case, a newly sterilized piece of driftwood, couldn't they then have some effect? I'm not in any way a biologist, so this is all pretty new to me. But I like to understand the "whys" of all this- I think it makes for better chances of success.

[TedsTank]

I just brought in a piece of drift wood that i had outside in a pastic container, for the winter....it did indeed freeze....there were a number of little thingys swimming in the tank after a few days. The fish ate them....but i would not trust freezing driftwood from a local pond or river. Many other water buggy things are dormant, frozen etc til spring. Please be careful.

[sirdarksol]

You're very correct, Meg. Quantity can be a problem with some bugs (there's ICH in almost every one of our tanks, but it only becomes a problem when allowed to grow in numbers). In this case, though, it usually isn't. The slimy stuff that grows is either a bacteria that feeds on wood or a mold that does the same. Either way, it seems to have no negative effect on fish (based on the fact that many of us have had the same stuff, and it hasn't harmed our fish.)

I'm like you, and I don't accept it when someone says "it just works that way." I always ask "why?" A lot of people on here are like that. It's how we've all learned as much as we have.

[meg1220]

Originally Posted by sirdarksol

You're very correct, Meg. Quantity can be a problem with some bugs (there's ich in almost every one of our tanks, but it only becomes a problem when allowed to grow in numbers). In this case, though, it usually isn't. The slimy stuff that grows is either a bacteria that feeds on wood or a mold that does the same. Either way, it seems to have no negative effect on fish (based on the fact that many of us have had the same stuff, and it hasn't harmed our fish.)

I'm like you, and I don't accept it when someone says "it just works that way." I always ask "why?" A lot of people on here are like that. It's how we've all learned as much as we have.

Gotcha.
As a total aside, when I added that piece of driftwood, I notice one of my neons wrestling with what looked like a splinter of the wood. After he pulled it off, I realized it was a big, fat, dead bug that was the color of the wood that had been killed by the boiling, but that I'd missed in scrubbing. I'm glad that thing wasn't alive in the tank. Unfortunately, it was too big for my fish to eat, so I had to net it out.

[KyWildFish]

Originally Posted by meg1220

Gotcha.
As a total aside, when I added that piece of driftwood, I notice one of my neons wrestling with what looked like a splinter of the wood. After he pulled it off, I realized it was a big, fat, dead bug that was the color of the wood that had been killed by the boiling, but that I'd missed in scrubbing. I'm glad that thing wasn't alive in the tank. Unfortunately, it was too big for my fish to eat, so I had to net it out.

Should of taken a pic, Im sure us geeks would have liked to try and ID it.

[meg1220]

Originally Posted by KyWildFish

Should of taken a pic, Im sure us geeks would have liked to try and ID it.

haha, I should've! Well, I guess I know for next time! I'll have to get waaay better at taking aquarium pictures.

[KyWildFish]

Ive heard the tripod is everything, there are some EXCELLENT threads on here about how some people get really great shots.

[Red1313]

Digital camera's and about 200 bad pics for a couple good shots
Least that's my system, the digital camera is a must

[meg1220]

Originally Posted by KyWildFish

Ive heard the tripod is everything, there are some EXCELLENT threads on here about how some people get really great shots.

Thanks, I will have to look into those. I always manage to get everything but the fish clear.
Trying to think of a way to bring this back to driftwood...
Sorry to derail this thread...

[Red1313]

I forgive you


So obviously freezing isn't going to sterilize the wood... oh well... that would have been a nice and easy way to do it at least if there's one thing that Canadian weather does really well it's freezing things