Tavel

oh no, it's not hard! I really hope I didn't make the write-up very confusing. I just have a lot on my mind and it's hard to organize sometimes, haha.

there's actually only a few basic things you need to find out, and I can help you with the rest.

1. how many lights do you want? (remember that one of these LED's is like 4-5 watts of fluorescent light.)

2. are you willing to solder?

Wyphy: what do you think of using component colors (Red, Green, Blue, and Amber)? The Luxeon Star has all 4 colors for a reasonable price. I bet that would solve the spectrum deficiencies of both white LED's and florescents. It would be a bit more expensive, and quite a bit more complex than white LED's...but I'm sure there are some real hard core plant and coral folks on here who would love something like that.

≈ D ≈

I have no doubt it is easy ... most things are once we do them and I'm game for having some fun Oh and no worries about having a lot on your mind, I respect that everyone on here has a life outside the forums and a lot on their plate these days.

As to your questions, well I'm not sure how many I will need but I can tell you that the tank I would like to try this on will be a 55g with live plants (though not the very high light requiring ones) and all will be housed in a DIY canopy.

Regarding soldering, I've still to get one but have no problem using one once I get to know how to use it (brother-in-law will be my teacher).

Wyphy

If you read the 'More Info' tag on the Solaris LED Illumination System (at DFS), they tell the mix of light colors used; though not the specific models, which can be fairly easily guessed.
I also believe that Solaris is buying the actual LEDs and mounting them on custom circuit boards rather than units like you used for your light.

You could do RBG mixing to get a desired color. They actually make an RBG unit that has each color separately controllable.
There are two color mixing systems for light, RBG and CMY (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow); search for color mixing to learn more about them.
There is a cyan LED available, but no yellow or magenta available apparently.
Could be nice for experimentation, but it probably isn't a cost effective solution for lighting an aquarium as a replacement for fluorescents.

Better to take cues from the pros and go mostly white (5500K or 6500K, your preference) then supplementing with just a few of each of the other needed colors, like the blue for corals; you could try adding some red or amber if you have higher light needing plants, though the commercial units don't appear to have any so perhaps there is enough red in the daylight LEDs; and your choice for a moon light of either the blue (deep water like, probably better for corals or salt in general) or a neutral white, something in the 4000K-4500K range, for a shallow water look, like a river, which are most of the freshwater fish that we keep.

As I wrote this post, I did some research about the Solaris unit mentioned above and found the manufacturer's site at PFO Aquatics, and they now have a version for planted tanks which has 24 white LEDs and 6 royal blue LEDs per foot, so I'm guessing the blue LEDs are intended as a night light, with maybe some of the whites on at a dim setting giving a 4000K-ish light.
It appears that all the spectrum needs are covered, so no red LEDs are needed if we wanted to DIY this.

I'd love to have one of these units, but unfortunately I can't afford the $900-$4000 price tag.

Tavel

I figure you'd need between 24 and 30 LED's for a 55 gallon planted tank. (I'm going by the general 2 watts per gallon rule...). That's $140-175 for the LED's...

...still interested?

That would draw as much as 7 Amps at 12 volts. the only way to get that kind of power on the cheap is by using a computer power supply (which can give 16 amps at 12v depending on model...still for only $20!). It should still be electrically safe, but it could be unsightly. You could integrate the power supply into your DIY hood so perhaps that's a non-issue.

You'd also need the components for the driver, basically the LM317's and resistors, plus a resistor and a switch to modify the power supply (i'll explain later) and you'll be looking at around $10 for electrical components.

So that's $140 for LED's, $20 for the power supply, and $10 for the driver components. So you're looking at around $170...

Wyphy

The planted tank Solaris units have 30 LEDs per foot of fixture.
Since a 55G is 48" long, it would have 120 LEDs; 96 white and 24 blue.
That's quite a bit of light.
They also have lenses to direct light, 40 degree I believe, and use (I think) the batwing LEDs.

I don't know that 96 white LEDs are really required, though it obviously depends on what plants you want to keep.
And you could always set the Solaris to not put out 100% light too.

Can't really say how many you would need since I haven't seen them in person.
24 is probably a good starting point.
Since that is a decent cash outlay, perhaps you could start with 10-12 and add more over a few months. Maybe start with some of the lower light plants until you add more LEDs.
This would also allow you to see the progress and then decide how many LEDs you actually need, be it more or less.

≈ D ≈

mjordan

i am a little confused on the different color talk right now.
why would u want yellow and amber/red lights.
would they help plants.
i thought the regular whites were going to work.
for moon lights would u need a seperate swich.

Tavel

the solaris unit runs on Luxeon Rebel LED's...the same LED's I suggest. However, they do use a lot more and they admit that their unit is crazy bright...

"Coral Bleaching Potential:
We have seen corals bleach due to increased light levels with the Solaris. If your corals are not accustomed to high light levels, we suggest that you start the maximum light level at 50% and slowly work up to 100% over a period of time. "

Now, 24-30 should be equivalent to 110 watts fluorescent lights, which adheres to the 2 watts per gallon of water rule for planted tanks.

(120 LED's, as in the solaris, is like 600 watts...c'mon folks, seriously.)

That unit does have a nice color blender and timer...but I think I could suffer without it to save $2400. Oh the misery.

mjordan: I started talking about component colors because it's the second best way to get real white light, second to incandescent sources like the sun and standard light bulbs.

Ideally, the red, green, and blue wavelengths interact and produce harmonics which form the full spectrum of light. Remember that light is a wave, similar to sound waves, and the different colors are a result of the different wavelengths...just like sound.

(but sometimes light is actually particle. it just depends on what you're looking for. Look for particles and you'll get particles, look for waves and you'll get waves. stupid quantum physics always confuses matters)

MOVING ON...lol

RGB LED's actually fall short in the real world when they interact with strange materials like wood and natural dyes. They need a fourth color, Amber, to create white light in general lighting applications.

RGB is fine for display back lighting (like in TV's and laptops) because it doesn't have to interact with those strange materials

White LED's on the other hand, create white light the same way fluorescent lights do, with phosphors.

fluorescent lights are made from mercury vapor which fluoresces in the ultraviolet spectrum. a phosphor coating absorbs the UV light and re-emits it at a longer wavelength (lower energy level). Blue light is in the 420nm range, while red light is all the way down at 700nm. different phosphors are mixed to approximate white light, but the spectrum is not complete.

White LED's work similarly, but they start with BLUE light and the phosphors emit at longer wavelengths. They're great because they simplify implementation and are perfectly suitable to 95% of all general lighting needs. But sometimes people (like artists, for example) really do need full spectrum white light and they'll need incandescent lights or component lighting.

Warning: nomenclature rant follows...

I always say fluorescent lights should really be called phosphorescent lights, and neon lights should be called fluorescent lights. Neon lights aren't necessarily made from neon, and their light is emitted by direct fluorescence, not phosphorescence like fluorescent lights.

Savvy?

mjordan

ok so if i made one of these for my 29g freshwater planted tank i would also need some amber along with wat color lights.

we estimated 12 lights/leds in the tanks




next topic:
i googled this topic and it came up with people trying to do this whith the standard leds but u guys told me they are not as good.
i also came across them using much less than u guys suggested.
in a 1 foot square 16 were use.

meaning bout 30 would be use on mine since im not going a foot in ea derection.


u guys said that the jumbo leds are 20 brighter than standard meaning that i would need 100 per square foot.


u guys told me that the standard was emitting to much blue in comparison to the jumbo leds and also would not last quite as long....

if wat u guys are saying is true why the heck would all these people be using standard.


HELP ME....

Tavel

maybe they're stupid, or don't know better, or are just too cheap and lazy to do it correctly.

I actually built a light out of 15 standard LED's and it was significantly less than spectacular. In fact, it would probably only make a decent MOON LIGHT on my 10 gallon aquarium. That's at 10 LED's per foot. would 6 more make it bright enough to emulate daylight? absolutely not.



Back to your project...now you've got me confused!

Are you planning on using component standard LED's? that would actually be an outstanding idea, but it would be difficult as you'd have to make a dimmer for each color to allow color mixing. You'd also definitely need to make a diffuser so you don't get dozens of little off-color shadows.

the base colors are red, green, and blue: in equal numbers. But you'll probably need to add amber to make the natural objects (like fish...) look correct.

As I said, white LED's are still a very good choice for this application. They don't have the full spectrum, but neither do fluorescent lights. The plants will adjust. You don't NEED the component colors, it was just a thought experiment.

The standard LED's won't look as good because they're not really meant for general lighting. Everything will have a blue cast. However, go ahead with the standard LED's because you got hundreds of them for free. It's not optimum...but it won't cost you anything but time, so have fun.

mjordan

my dad said he might have some jumbo so im going to wait.
no im not looking into the different colors just wondering why i would need them.


so would i need that amber u were talking bout to get a good view of my fish.
would there colors be looking different.



for moon lights would i need a seperate swich

Tavel

they should look fine with just the white led's. If not, you can always add a few amber or red LED's to hopefully bring out some more color.

As for switching between daylight and moonlight, you can actually use a DPST switch - double pole, single throw. it has three contacts, the two circuits and a ground. flipping the switch toggles between the circuits.

You could probably get creative and all of the LED's onto one terminal, then a small number of those onto the other terminal for moonlighting. That way you'd use the same led's for moonlighting, just not as many.

Of course, that won't really work if you're using an outlet timer that cuts power to the whole thing.

mjordan

i was thinking bot all this and is the pc charger thing u guys think is awsome worth it.
thanks so much u have been a big help

Wyphy

Most green plants need a few different wavelengths (colors) of light to have photosynthesis. Red happens to be one of those colors, along with some in the blue-ish range.

As for separate switches for moon lights, yes or no, it depends on how you want to set up your system.
You could have one power supply with two groups of lights, one for day and one for night; for this you would want a single pole double throw (SPDT) switch which has the hot (+) lead to the common and the opposite sides to each type of LED, day and night, both circuits go back to the same ground connection (-). To change from day to night, you flip the switch and that's it. You would probably want a full off switch somewhere, either a center-off SPDT switch for the LEDs or an on-off switch somewhere before the SPDT, either in the 110V or 12V (or whatever) line.
If this doesn't make sense to you, I could draw a wiring diagram for you.

The other option is to have two power supplies, and thus two separate LED circuits.
The advantage here is that you can buy 2 inexpensive timers and have the lights change automatically every day at the same time, giving your fish/plants a consistent, simulated day/night cycle.
There are also timer power strips for around $25-$45 from places like DFS that are nice if you want to make that investment.
This is the route I've chosen, since I needed a power strip anyway, and a timer, and it was something I could afford.

mjordan

thats cool thanks.


i already have a power strip and have a timer but dont use it.


my Q is since leds have been said in this tread to have lots of blue will my plants grow without that red being as exsesive. wat should a chart look like.

any nubers or ratios u guys could give me would be good.
im good at math not wiring

Wyphy

Since you just have generic white LEDs there probably isn't a spectrum graph for them, or you could maybe find one if you knew the manufacturer, but it's unlikely.

Unfortunately, the only way to really know is to build one and see what it looks like.
I'd get a small prototyping PCB and built it with 20-30 LEDs and then test it over the tank. You should test it as close to how it would be for a full unit as possible, so 1" above the glass lid, or whatever your setup will be.
It may look fine and you can build the rest of the units you need.

The only problem then is how plants will grow under it, and you really cannot tell that without testing it.
You'd need to set up the system and see if the plants grow, or at least don't start to die.
Would probably need several days at minimum, perhaps longer, to see if they start turning brown. Even if they don't brown up, it doesn't mean that they will grow quickly, there may be just enough light for them to survive.
If you went through several weeks with no dying, but almost no growth, you could try adding some red/amber LEDs to the system and see what happens.

mjordan

i might just use the jumbo leds.
i think u guys have me convinced but i still will try it with the regular and report back just to see...


PS: i will be doing the standard led test first with a 10g to see how it works. i will be using around 50 leds.

mjordan

is this topic still open.


just wondering no specific reason behind it

Tavel

of course it's still open!

Wyphy

Threads get closed after (I believe) 6 months of no replies, and I think it is automated.
So as long as there is activity here, then the thread will stay open.

mjordan

ok cool. hopefully in the next week or 2 i can make my standard led for a test on a 10g

mjordan

ok well my dad found these and i was wondering wat u guys at fishlore thought bout them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/12V-5...ayphotohosting

Tavel

horrible deal, those are standard LED's in a convenient housing. You could make something similar for $4...

mjordan

i wasnt shure if they were standard or not.

ok cool

Tavel

yeah, they're rated "<50ma"...whatever that means. But high power LED's are well into the 350ma to 1000ma range.

mjordan

thanks

mjordan

help help. which is the light that u fishlorians have been using. i was finanally ready to order last noght but forgot which one it is.

i bealive this is it... http://www.ledsupply.com/07007-rgb-01-3.php
only prob is that that is red, blue and green(1 of each). so im not shure.

well at least thats what i understoof from travel.

plz provide link.

thank u

MizRamzi

I've read up on the use of led lights and I found that most use the red/white. I use the red for about 2hrs and then the white til morn. It really promotes breeding for the nocturnal fishes, mimicking the moon. I don't use the blue or green.

mjordan

ok i alsways thought it was amber that bas missing and blue was moon light but col

Tavel

http://www.ledsupply.com/07007-pwc-08-3.php
http://www.ledsupply.com/07007-pwc-08-1.php

Either of those, depending on your setup. You don't actually need the component colors because the white works very well.

MizRamzi: these are for the day lights, not moon-lighting.