Tavel

it would take a week to solder...and then it wouldn't work, just to make you mad. lol.

SantaMonica

My water tests today, all Salifert:

N03: 0 (clear)
P04: 0 (clear)
Si: 0 (clear)
Ca: 490
Alk: 9.3
Mg: 1500
pH: 8.4

Oil_Fan

Hey SantaMonica. Have you heard that it's safe to use cpvc instead of PVC? That's what I used. My rig has been up and running for almost 3 weeks now but I've been dealing with a film on top of the water in my main tank, which appeared shortly after starting this project. I keep skimming it off and throwing it out, replacing it with more SW. I thought it would stop but so far no such luck.

I'm thinking I may need to rebuild it with normal pvc piping.

SantaMonica

Good question. Has not come up before. As for the film at the top, I don't think it's related to the scrubber, unless you are running it incorrectly. Post some pics of the setup, and describe how you operate it.

As for the chlorine, you may want to ask in some advanced/chemisty forums if it is safe for tanks.

Tavel

CPVC is for hot/cold potable water, so it's actually SAFER than PVC which is only rated for gray water and sewage.

Oil_Fan

Chlorine?? I didn't ask anything about chlorine.

As for seeing the setup, I have pictures in this thread along with details in how I set it up.

My DIY Algae Scrubber for my SW Reef Tank

steveoslaw

Ok SantaMonica, I'm sold. I will be building a scrubber this weekend, I just need to figure out my space restrictions. I may change the shape to multiple small panels if I go vertical. I've been doing this over 20 years and I don't know why I've never tried a scrubber. I've went full circle from many large tanks with complex setups to my single 55 and I really like simplicity. It's 5 years old now and i just can't get the nitrates down. I recently changed the wet/dry to a 20 gal sump with a fuge and modified it to add in the trickle filter but the nitrates will not drop below 15 PPM. My next project was a sulphur/denitrator but to really optimize a denitrator so you're not tweaking it all the time you should run a redox probe and that ends up in $$$. Your scrubber seems like the perfect solution, I'll let you know how it goes.

SantaMonica

Oil: Chorinated is what the "C" stands for in CPVC. But I guess it's fine. Your first round of growth looks great! Now just get on a weekly cleaning schedule. You do have your light on an 18 hour timer, right? Also, if you want to supercharge it, put a light on the other side.

Steve: Welcome aboard! Two parallel screens would be a good solution for you, with a light in the middle of them, and on both ends. This ways the screens can be cleaned one-per-week, and the lights are strong and redundant.

SantaMonica

Update:

Someone came up with a great way to attach Rug Canvas. Rug Canvas is the highest performance screen material; it is preferred over Plastic Canvas because Rug has small fibers that algae can attach tightly too. This means you get growth faster, and you get more growth sticking to the screen after cleaning (thus, no overly-cleaned bare spots). The problem with Rug is that it's a flimsy material, and the edges tend to unravel. It also won't last forever. So consider it more work, in order to get the highest performance.

Anyway, this idea is very simple, but I've not tried it. So you might have a plastic canvas version as a backup, in case you can't get the Rug working properly. You'll need to make the slot wider, to accomodate the plastic rod. The trick will be getting the right "fit" between the rod/screen, and the slot, so that the water flows smoothly. It will be trickier than a simple plasic canvas, no doubt. So plan on experimenting with it for a few days in the bathtub.

You can get Rug Canvas at any crafts/sewing store. Also, you might need to sew/glue/hotmelt/etc the loose edges so that it does not unravel.

Oil_Fan

Ahhh...did not know that. That maybe reason enough for me to change it out using standard pvc piping. And a light on the other side isn't a real option. No space for it. That's also why I made the screen about 20% larger for my tank size.

No timer for now...just me turning it off/on. I'll have to do one since I'm not home enough though I am running the light at night to keep my pH levels up.

GreenMan13

CPVC would be better then PVC like Tavel said. CPVC is made to higher quality standards then PVC is so don't worry about switching it out. If you have a choice between PVC and CPVC at the same price, you should go with the CPVC anyways.

Oil_Fan

Today there wasn't any film on top of the water. Hopefully whatever it was has run it's course.

SantaMonica

Probably was just some oily food, or your hands

SantaMonica

Update Of The Day:

Waste is Food: Reef tank owners sometime get into the frame of mind of "food is food, and waste is waste". Thus they put food into the tank, and they remove waste from the tank (skimming, siphoning, waterchanges.) But actually, both food and waste are Organic, and thus are both "food" (food for something, somewhere). Corals and inverts may not directly eat the big krill that you feed your fish, but they do eat the waste from those fish. Further info:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

SantaMonica

Successes of the Day:

todj2002 on the SWF site: "since installing scrubber, N and P are still both at zero. i cleaned it again today. not any big deal, but huge progress for me. finally beat the algae after two years of trying. using scrubber with chaeto and RO water now. finally getting somewhere."

Marine_Nick on the RP site: "Thought I'd update on my screen. When setting it up I was concerned about light pollution from the sump into the room, and noise from the falling water. as my tank is on an outside wall, I wanted to put the screen outside if possible. I already had an old 18 x 12 x 12 tank, so had it drilled and put a small wier in it, the water is pumped from the sump up and out through the wall to the screen, runs down the screen, through the weir, back through the wall and back into the sump. All of this is in a small shed I made which contains all the lighting etc, my screen is 18 inches tall by 12 inches wide and has a light on either side. Screen has been running now for 4 weeks, and my nitrates have dropped from 30 to 7 and phosphate from 0.25 to 0. In the last 4 weeks, nothing else has changed in my tank other than more fish being introduced, and therefore more food being added, and still the parameters have dropped!! Overall I'm really happy with results so far and hope to see the nitrates drop to zero in the next week or two. Big thanks to Santa Monica for this thread and all the info!"

jtrembley on the MD site: "I got frustrated with the skimmer (EuroReef, rated for 80) on my 40 gallon a while back. It was pulling out *lots* of crud, but I was having trouble with detritus building up, and rising P values. Since yanking the skimmer and DIYing (poorly) a rev. 2 scrubber [acrylic box style], phosphates and nuisance algae are down, and the backlog of detritus is slowly being consumed. I'm seeing lots more worms (particularly the small ones that build white, spiraling tubes) and 'pods (amphi- and cope- that is, but not octo-). Here's the funny thing: at the 3 year stage of my 40, I started getting lots of nuisance algae, despite having one of the hands-down best skimmers for small tanks, an MCE600, on it. Thinking that I was doing something wrong, I put an MC-80 on it. After another year, I started getting more and more detritus building up in the display, despite having a *lot* (over 2k GPH) of flow. And then I noticed something else: I no longer had many fan and bristle worms, amphipods, or copepods left in the sytem, either. So...I started swapping out my old LR for new, to replenish the critters. And I tried Fauna Marin and vodka dosing. But the critters weren't really spreading, and the nuisance algae was getting worse, and my P was rising despite water changes. So, I thought about it, poked around, and looked at Eric Borneman's study of *fresh* skimmate (i.e., not stuff that was left in the cup to rot). And I realized something: having a high quality skimmer on the tank was probably stripping the tank of big chunks of its potential cleanup crew. So I took off the skimmer, and put in a turf screen to cover the water's surface in what used to be the skimmer's chamber in my sump. Low and behold: I'm feeding more; I'm once again seeing fresh worm tracks in my sand bed; the copepods are back; the nuisance algae is dying off; P is undetectable by hobby kits; and the detritus is slowly clearing up. And I'm not doing as many water changes. I checked pH this morning, it was 8.2, before the lights are on. I'm honestly not seeing the down side. So yeah, removing the skimmer and putting in a $5 turf scrubber fixed my tank of "old tank syndrome". Just for giggles, I just tested my N (0.2 or 0.5 Salifert) and P (0.05 Hanna photometer). No visible HA, turfs, or cyano in the display, and I can (easily) feed 2X cubes of Hikari mysis, some dulse, and 2 scoops' worth of Reef Chili daily (again, in a 40). And I haven't done a water change in a month. I'm honestly not seeing a downside to scrubbers at this point."

SantaMonica

.
Update: The Trick of Dark Brown Algae

This has now happened to many people who have new scrubbers. They get early growth, but it's not the green stuff that they see in most pics. Instead it's a dark brown super-thick "coating", or a black "tar", that looks like it was poured on:










What you have here is the type of algae that grows when nutrients are extremely high (!). After a few cleanings, when the nutirents come down, the color will lighten up to some balance point where it will stay. The big problem, however, is that people think the screen is not growing, so they leave it in to "grow more" (by not cleaning it). BIG MISTAKE! This type of algae does not grow thick, at all. It never gets more than 1/4" (6mm) or so. And worse, since it's SO DARK, it block all light from reaching the bottom layers, thus causing those layers to die and release nitrate and phosphate back into the water. So the solution is to clean ANY and ALL dark brown/black algae right away, and don't even wait until the end of the week. Basically, if you cannot see your screen, then light is not reaching it and it needs to be cleaned. You'll only have to do this a few times before the nutrients come down and the algae color lightens up. Don't fall for the Dark Brown Algae Trick.

hop2jr

Ok here it is srubber has been running for about 4 weeks starting to get the whole screen turning green an brown. Took my tests tonight and had 0 ammonia , 0 Nitriite, 0 Nitrates, PH 7.2 temp 78FH. the 0 nitrate has me worried with my plants will they be ok or should I use a fert for them? The Blue green slime algea is starting to die off too will have pics soon.

SantaMonica

You said "here is"... was there a pic?

"Zero" on a test kit is not really zero. It's just below what the kit measures. Watch your plants for a few weeks. Should be fine. If they start lacking growth, don't add fertilizer; instead, just reduce the number of hours you leave the scrubber on.

A whole story on your tank/situation would be great to hear. You are the first success story on FishLore !

hop2jr

No don't have pics yet will be up soon thanks for the info.

SantaMonica

Success of the Day:

"Mxett" on the MD site: "I installed a simple [scrubber] over my refugium. It uses an old plastic fruit juice container and a syphon [which makes a surge device] to dump 2 litres onto a white plastic chopping board which lays horizontally over the top of the refugium. A reflective CFL [bulb] is situated just 10cm above this board. The surge occurs every 30 seconds, lasting for 15 seconds. Growth on the [scrubber] has been excellent. Harvesting the algae is performed every 1 to 2 weeks per SM's instructions. [should be weekly ] N & P have never been detectable in my system, BUT I have always struggled with a very persistant nuisance red algae! It threatened to overtake my entire tank in the months before installing this [scrubber], which is only a modest size for my 800 litre cube. Anyway, after 3 months of using the [scrubber] I can confidently say I have little to none of this red algae left! My purple tange eats it and always has, but with less nutrients available to it, it has just withered away, and he just finishes it off. Overall a great success over a difficult pest. Thanks SM for providing the inspiration and idea to create, install and use such a cheap, easy and effective natural filter."

Peterpiper

I have been playing with the idea of a scrubber, but have gone with placing a tile in the sump with 3/4" water flow over it
lighting is 1 x 60w ES Natural 5000K, will be installing another one to get more spread of light. Tile size is 12" x 10"
Pic's...
Ps Did it in 15min

Attached Images

	Turf Scrubber 001 Large e-mail view.jpg (174.6 KB, 46 views)
	Turf Scrubber 002 Large e-mail view.jpg (149.3 KB, 41 views)

SantaMonica

How/where is the flow coming and going to? Can you reduce the 3/4" water to 1/4"

You have the back (rough) side of the tile up, correct?

Peterpiper

If you look at the pic on the left, the water flows from right to left then discharges at the bottom of the pic ( you can see the ripples )
I can lower the water level to 1/4".
Yes the rough side is up.

Peterpiper

I am thinking that if this works out ok with just the 1 tile, then I would make a 3' one that would sit above the sump. This would have 3 tiles and the lighting would be a 3' T5.
Just a Q on cleaning the scrubbers, I have read that you should clean the algae off once a week, but then I have read that on the 2 sided ones you clean one side one week then the other the next... so you would be cleaning each side every 2 weeks??

SantaMonica

A single T5 is would not be enough to cover the 12" width; You'd need at least a double T5.

Yes you clean half each week, but you still bring all of it to the sink for FW. If your multi-tiles can be separated, then you could clean one now, but just pour RODI over the other (with the pumps off, of course). If your growth got really heavy, you could clean one tile every three days or so. Important thing is that FW gets on the screen at least once a week.

SantaMonica

Scrubber FAQ 2.0 is now up:
http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/...c.php?f=9&t=68

SantaMonica

.
Today's Success of the Day, from OceanParks on the MFT site, had a good story to it. So here it is with his posts and the dates:

12/17: SantiMonica: I've also built and installed your screen. I am on day 5. I have the brown/green film and was wondering how long before you start to see a noticable drop in Nitrates? I have a 110 gal reef tank with fish and my Nitrates are at 20ppm. Thanks.

12/18: and what wattage bulb would you suggest (pc flood) would you recommend for better results?

1/5: Ok. So I read your thread and built a scrubber (a true hobbyist). I'm in the middle of week three and I've done 2 cleanings and one freshwater rinse. Nitrates began at 30ppm and are now down to 5ppm (with the help of a 40% water change) in this 110 gallon reef tank. I removed the skimmer and UV Sterilizer to allow room for the scrubber. I will compose a more formal, descriptive posting in the near future on my setup - one that I hope you will use in your RESULTS postings. I am still trying to get a grip of this thread thing....it is my first one. Did you say that you were getting better results with a different light bulb. If so can you please specify? Thanks! Enjoy the pictures! What do ya think?










1/5: [Remove the filter socks.] Really about the socks? I'm afraid of too may particles floating around. I'll give it a try. Also, can I get the plant-grow bulb at Home Depot and is it in Flood form? I have the timer set for 16hrs on and 8hrs off, however, I get excited and want to turn them on early for (in my mind) faster results. Probably no better results? Ok. Off with the socks. Good idea. Is the grow-light a flood light like those pc flood light? Thanks for the help! I will send a full report and pictures in a few weeks!

1/7: I replaced my flood lights with 2700K "soft white" PC Flood lights today. Same wattage...they just seem dimmer. It's that red light. Hope it works better.

1/12: I spent some time reviewing the begining of this thread and noticed that most of the pictures showed bright green thick mats of algea on the screen. I am not getting that after 5 weeks. I am getting dark brown/red stuff and it's only about 1/4" combined. [The stealthy high-nutrient black/brown algae that must be removed right away.] I did use some of the brown/red stuff to seed the new screen when I built it. Should I rebuild the screen and seed it with some hair algae from the tank? [not now.] Also, at the bottom of my sump, beneath the screen there is red/brown slime forming (see picture). Should I remove/treat for this or can it be concidered benefitial? [leave it.]

1/12: Here is 5.1 oz of the black oil (I read from your other site). Funny enough, under the layer of black stuff there was some bright green algae. Any thoughts on that? [that's why it needs to be removed right away.]

1/20: CLEAR!!!!!! My scrubber has been up since December 18th and tonight the Nitrate test (Nutrafin) read clear indicating 0 nitrates! Awesome. Thank you SantiMonica. Awesome. 0 Nitrates on the Salifert Test too.
.

SantaMonica

One of the big benefits of a scrubber is that it keeps food in the water. Here is an update pertaining to this:

Part 1 of 7:

Taken from "Reef Food" by Eric Borneman:
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.php

"Detritus, marine snow, particulate organic material, and suspended particulate matter are all names for the bits of "dirt" [food] that flow around the reef; material that is composed of fecal material, borings, algae, plant material, mucus, associated bacteria, cyanobacteria and other particles. Decomposers (mainly bacteria and associated flora and fauna) break down waste material in the water, on the reef, and primarily, in the soft sediments. The result of their presence and action is not only a food source in and of itself, but provides raw material for channeling back into the food chain, largely through the benthic algae and phytoplankton.

"Phytoplankton [food] are small unicellular algae, or protists, that drift in the water column. They may be very abundant in and around coral reefs, and they are capable of absorbing large amounts of organic and inorganic nutrients. [...] Some of the reef animals can feed directly on phytoplankton; many soft corals, some sponges, almost all clams, feather-duster worms, and other filter feeders utilize phytoplankton directly as a food source. Small animals in the water column, termed zooplankton [food], also utilize phytoplankton as a food source. For the smaller zooplankton, phytoplankton and bacteria are the primary food source.

"Both of the [photos not shown] are from reefs on the Great Barrier Reef, Australia. The left photo shows the clear "nutrient poor" (oligotrophic) waters of the outer reefs. The right photo is of an inshore "nutrient rich" lagoon reef off Townsville. Notice how coral coverage in both systems is high, and even though the green phytoplankton-filled lagoonal reef is nutrient rich, it supports a high density of Acropora.

"Coral reef food sources, then, are largely produced by the ocean. Bacteria, detritus, phytoplankton, zooplankton, small benthic fauna, mucus, and dissolved organic and inorganic material of various types and sizes are what comprise the majority of food on a coral reef.

"In aquaria, we are faced with several realities. Our phytoplankton and zooplankton populations are generally negligible to non-existent in comparison with coral reef communities. Those which do exist are either rapidly consumed without having a chance to reproduce, or they are rapidly removed or killed by pumps and filtering devices or suspension-feeders. Coral mucus, bacteria, detritus, larval benthos and other "psuedo-plankton" might be present in a reasonable amount if the water column were not stripped. On the other hand, dissolved organic and inorganic material [nitrate, phosphate] levels are frequently much higher than they are in the ocean. [...] Even very well maintained aquaria are generally found with much higher levels of nitrogen and phosphorous than wild communities. Even though many desirable organisms are able to utilize these nutrients, levels in most aquaria are very unnatural, and coral reefs under such conditions often wane or die - a process known as eutrophication.

"It is the lack of water column-based food that results in limited success with the maintenance of some desirable animals, such as crinoids, flame scallops, clams, certain corals, sponges, bryozoans, and many other invertebrates. Even the symbiotic (zooxanthellate) corals [like SPS] suffer, despite many obvious long-term successes with these animals.

"In terms of previously mentioned export mechanisms, it really does little good to be cultivating or adding more food material in the water column if it is all being rapidly removed by filtration devices. live rock and sand provide abundant filtration, and some of the articles in past issues describing the set-up and use of unskimmed tanks are, in my experience, something that should be seriously considered. Algae Turf Scrubbers are also viable systems that provide low ambient water nutrient levels [of nitrate and phosphate] while maintaining higher amounts of food and particulate matter in the water. I also feel that if protein skimmers are used, they should probably be used in an intermittent fashion.

SantaMonica

Thought Of The Day:

A few folks have seen (or thought that they had seen) their skimmers "working less" or "producing less" after their scrubber started working. While this may have happened for other reasons, there is really no direct reason that a scrubber should cause a skimmer to produce less. This is because a skimmer and a scrubber remove different things: Scrubbers remove Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate, which are invisible, and which are the things that your test kits test for. Skimmers remove food (Organics). So having a scrubber remove the Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate really shouldn't cause a skimmer to remove any less food (unless you are feeding less). What MIGHT be happening, is that less Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate in the water means there is less food for bacteria (bacteria eat Organics AND Inorganics), and if there is less bacteria, then there is less to skim out.

hop2jr

Here is some updated pics of my freshwater scrubber you can see that the algea likes to grow in my sump and on the screen all test show zero but I did had my nitrates go to 20 one of my bulbs got unplugged and feeding a little heavy. Ohh ya here is the short story on my tank 75gal with a DIY 29gal sump 300ghp flow. Sand bottom fully planted with corkscrew val, Brazil sword, Hornworth, Anubis, and some that I just don't know. Fought every type of algea know to man and the scrubber has worked the best to control them all but Blue green slime still have that though.

Attached Images

	sump with scrubber.JPG (220.6 KB, 17 views)
	new fish pics 005.JPG (189.2 KB, 13 views)