JFSUPRE

If you are not open minded or for some reason would take offense if I completely go against what most people think this post is not for you. This is just my opinion about concepts of keeping discus fish, not in anyway a scientific fact just my opinions.

So, a few weeks ago I walked into my LFS, a very nice place that I stop in here and there to chat with the owner and take a look at his current stock. He was always talking about keeping a few 75gal tanks full of discus for sale. Well I was surprised when the area he said he was going to make for them wasn't set up, buttt low and behold my girlfriend pointed out right above the fish tank full of Angels I was looking at. Was full of torquise discus. This was the first time I'd seen one not in a book. And that was all it took. I began to day dream of keeping them at work (I run a pet dept at Walmart and stock live fish). I set to looking online for an appropriate tank, stand, etc. But thats when the problems began.

I was reading all the advice online, about discus, I knew they were hard to keep but all the tips online were insane. I was getting far to scared. I had only wanted to get one discus at the time seeing it was a fifty dollar fish (Sure I'll be getting 50% off), But I still didn't want to buy one twenty five dollar fish just to kill it. People talking about a special prepared meal for them, daily water changes, feeding 4+ times a day. I couldn't believe people were shaping their lives around their fish. I was about to swear it off until I went to my LFS to speak to the owner once more. And was fascinated at what I heard. And figured I'd make this post for any of you whom have been scared off of keeping discus.

First of all, lets remember most Discus you're getting ARE NOT wild discus anymore. They are being bred in captivity which is making them hardier then their wild ancestors. So all the rules that apply to discus such as coming from the cleanest water in the world doesn't matter. Most fish over time can adapt to water qualities like pH and Hardness. So contrary to all the talk about acidic pH being key for discus, my LFS was telling me infact that they were shipped to him in rather alkaline water somewhere on the 7.5 side. And were now being kept at a neutral pH. Then I spoke to him about the daily water changes, and he laughed. He has had them for a few weeks now and only did 25% water changes once a week. And this is where most would argue that its impossible or they wouldn't buy the fish there. But they were all bright in color, gaining size, eyes seemed fine, no sign of disease. Then I spoke to him about keeping them alone or not schooling them as online this is often said to be impossible. But he argued otherwise telling me about a breeder in Texas that houses them in their own tank when they're juvies until they are large enough to be add to his giant school of discus fish. We moved then to the topic of the prepared foods. He said that this current shipment from Vietnam surprised him completely as they were eating anything, flakes, frozen blood works, shrimp, etc. And this is also repeated in the ask Jack column of TFH. Then there is something about avoiding carbon filters. Large amount of carbon yes can be dangerous but your Marineland Penguin series carbon filter, will not do any harm. The one thing I can say about daily water changes is it will help your discus grow further, but not doing it wont kill it.

So what am I going to do? I purchased a 30 gal tank, Marineland Penquin 300 filter with biowheel and a heater. I'm currently cycling the tank, then I will buffer the ph to 7.0, I will start with one single discus on flake, and frozen food, a few oto cats, and possibly some german blue rams. Then..after months if all goes well with this discus I will get a second house it in a 10 gal till its relatively close to the size of the other and add him in. So to you that have been scared by what you've read online. Don't be. Ask your supplier how they house their fish, and replicate it at home. Then slowly adjust them to a system that works better for you.

sirdarksol

Folks here don't get offended if people present "against the grain" opinions.

There is a purpose for much of this "excessive" stuff, but that's explained in dozens of articles elsewhere. Suffice it to say at this point that there's a reason that, even though they're bred in captivity, they cost more than the entire stock of my 90g tank.

This isn't necessarily the case. Take tetras, guppies, mollies, carp (goldies and koi), and bettas... the wild types are far more hardy than those bred in captivity. This is largely because of inbreeding that is inherent in a limited breeding stock. In fact, I can't really think of any fish that the captive ones are hardier.

This kind of breeding does not change the genetic predisposition toward preferring soft, acidic water. That is a mechanism that is built into each cell membrane of the fish. African cichlids are often bred in aquaria, but still don't deal well with neutral water.

Here's where I run into problems. You say at the beginning that this is your personal opinion, but at the end here, you are encouraging people to go against the experience of thousands of discus keepers based on theory developed from the way a pet store keeps their discus. The way that pet stores keep fish generally doesn't work long term. They don't keep fish long term because that would bleed money from them.
Having a theory is great, and I encourage you to test it, but until you have done so, it is best to not encourage others to follow your theory, since their fishes' lives are on the line.

Regal

I'm confused about your source for the information you have here. Do you have fish at home? And you said the guy you talked to at a fish store had discus for all of a few weeks?

Iron waffle

I too have heard that discus are hard to keep, requiring all this fancy equipment and special food and is somewhat overblown in my opinion. I agree that most fish can adapt to certain water conditions, but in the end, it will always prefer it's natural water and, as with most animals, a home that resembles it's natural habitat.

However, i believe that if you properly care for your discus, as with absolutely any other fish, they will do just fine. Remember, often times it's the owner and NOT the fish

agabr123

i think fish are a very special kind of pet to keep in that we literally have complete control their entire environment. having said that, i think a certain responsibility comes with keeping fish, and that is that we try to keep the environment they live in as close to what the natural one would have been as possible in regards to things that would actually impact their health (i.e. pH, water parameters, hardness, etc). therefore, while i'm sure it's completely possible to keep discus at a pH that is higher than what they prefer, it's not the BEST thing to do when you can quite easily put in a piece of driftwood and have the tannins lower the pH naturally. personally, i would be extremely hesitant to take advice on how to keep fish from an LFS that keeps them for a very short amount of time before selling them, much more willing to take advice from those that have been keeping healthy and happy discus for years.

aquarist48

WELCOME to Fish Lore. Good luck. I seriously hope you do more research and not just stock your tank full of discus because the LFS says they'll be fine. I'm afraid you'll be in for a rude awakening.

capekate

helloo JFSUPRE
Discus are beautiful fish and its easy to see how one can start to imagine them in their own tanks at home. I had Discus for a little over two years and sad to say they are all gone now. Knowing that they died, not due to water conditions but from stress and aggression and some from poor quality from the breeder doesnt console me of their loss.
I agree that they are not as hard to keep as some would imagine. In the Discus Care Sheet that I wrote up a year or so ago I mentioned this fact along with some basic care guides.
Changing water daily? No, I never did. I changed the water twice a week and it was stocked with 7 juvies. My water is soft with a low PH which is what the species prefer. Whether they have become adjusted to a higher Ph is one thing, but that they prefer a lower PH is something else. I choose to pick the fish for my tanks on what their natural Ph requirements are.
Special diets? No... my Discus ate frozen brine shrimp, frozen blood worms, beef hearts and a quality pellet. Easy enough...
There are cases where the attention is greater with these fish. Those are usually from folks who want to breed or show their high quality Discus.
Tho to remember a fact, they are sensitive to water quality and will show it immediatly. They are stressful fish and skitish. I lost two of them just by freaking out and hitting the top of the tank, sides of tank and ornaments, it was very sad. Lost two little stunted babies that never grew, poor quality stock. I also lost two to aggression between Discus. Stressed so badly they died.
If you plan on keeping Discus, you have to make absolutely sure that you have no ammonia or mini cycle happen in your tank. They will not survive it and pass very quickly. My last Discus I had by itself in a 29g, it was almost two and a half years old and one morning I came in and it was dead. My tank went through a mini cycle for some unknown reason.
Young baby and juvi Discus do need to be fed at least four times a day other wise you can end up with a stunted fish that will never grow, but this is true for most fry. They grow large and need a quality diet of food to do this. Once they are mature you can cut down the feeding to twice a day.
I really would not recommend Discus for a office tank. Without being able to watch them and feed them over the weekends, anything can happen and if you do not act quickly with these sensitive fish you can loose them.
I also would not recommend spacing out the purchase of your Discus. They become very territorial in their tank and its best to get the number of Discus you plan on keeping as babies and let them grow up together.
They seem to dislike newcomers in their established tanks.
Discus are not all that different from other sensitive tropicals, but you still need to be there 24/7 for their care and maintain a pristene tank for them.

JFSUPRE

Now I know I didn't post my source's information and mentioned his current stock he has only kept for a few weeks. But this in my opinion is another problem, you knock LFS and suggest that I should take their advice hesitantly, but I suppose it makes more sense to listen to someone online, with no proof of their ability to keep fish other then a bar in their signature listing tanks and fish. The owner of my LFS has kept Discus for years, and worked in the industry for years. He runs a very nice place that even services other peoples aquariums, makes emergancy calls for tanks, allows customers to house their fish in his tanks if there is a power outage, etc. So I think I would take his information to heart. You need to stop just generalizing that all fish store owners know nothing, and are out to get you. This owner is right between a Petco and a Petsmart, he owns the place, and built it with his retirement money so he needs to keep his customers, not upset them.

This post was meant to say simply, I think that most advice you read about in keeping Discus, and you see online is blown far out of proportion. Yes they need good water quality, but if you cycle your tank and stock it responsibly, and test you water, and do regular water changes, even twice a week, but not everyday like you see all over the place. Then your water quality should be fine. They don't need these crazy homemade foods, enless you want to grow them out quickly. And as far as them NEEDing to be schooled, I disagree. So I will put what I've said to the test and get back to you with a weekly log until either I get tired of it, or I'm wrong and the fish dies.

Lucy

That's pretty cruel, how about instead saying...... if I'm wrong, I'll do what's needed to correct the problem.

I'm not about to voice my opinion whether your info is right or wrong, because, like you, I have never kept them.

Personally, I would do my own research and also trust the advice given by Sirdarksol and CapeKate.

If, in fact you don't trust the members of FishLore, it makes me wonder why you're part of the forum other than try and show the info here is wrong and you are right without having ever kept this species.

sirdarksol

You're jumping to a very incorrect conclusion in this little rant. Nobody here has attacked the pet store owner you got this info from.
What we said was that the way that he keeps his fish in the store is going to be entirely different from how a successful home tank is going to be set up. This is partly due to the fact that he can afford equipment that we can't afford (most pet stores have what amount to a thousand or more gallons of water running through a single system, which allows for a balance in water quality that most of us dream of), and partly due to the fact that he is not planning on hanging on to the fish for a long time. Nobody said there was anything wrong with this. As long as they're not overstocking tanks to the point that they're stressing the fish mentally as well as physically, that's fine.

Now, as far as the advice of the dozens of discus keepers who have been through here goes, you seem to think that they just came up with this stuff off the tops of their heads. This is not the case. It is based on their experience keeping the fish.
The whole special diet thing is generally accepted because most discus are really finicky eaters. It's usually just a matter of getting them the nutrients they need in a form that they'll eat. If they'll eat a high-quality flake, and if you supplement it with some fresh or frozen foods, then go for it.

I don't know as much about discus' schooling behaviors, but I do know that there are other fish that get severely stressed (even to the point of dying of what appears to be loneliness) when not allowed to be in schools. Cories are one such fish.

The water change thing just depends on how clean you can keep the water. If you've got a large enough tank to dilute the waste (they're messy eaters and produce a lot of nitrogen), and good enough filtration to keep the solid stuff out of the water column, there isn't as much need for the daily water changes.

JFSUPRE

Perhaps I phrased that wrong because I would of course try and correct whatever the problem is that would be ailing the fish being kept.

Its not that I don't trust, I don't like being attacked for suggesting alternatives to opinions that people believe to be written in stone. Fish are a wonderful example of evolution, subtle differences in their habitat can make one fish, alter its genetics over years to adapt. So to think that there is only one right or wrong way to do something is silly to me. I've done my personal research and will consider this an experiment. I'm not saying if the fish dies it dies, I look forward to keeping him for his full natural life span which as far as I know is somewhere around 20+ years. If I'm wrong however about not needing to school, not needing daily water changes, and not needing a prepared diet, with feedings that I need to cater my life around, I'll be the first to admit it and adapt my method.

As for trusting the members, I take all advice online with a grain of salt, I don't know you, I can see what you do. I can walk to my LFS (not Petco, or Petsmart, or even other Walmarts) little mom and pop fish stores, and see the staff there, if their, knowledge able, and the condition they keep the fish. Yes it short term, but how fast do 50 dollar Discus fish move in a small town, I assure you that they need to look at the long term as well, I have people complaining about spending 3.34 for German Blue Rams, which I buy for 7 dollars plus.

As far as what the owner is keeping them in, it looks to be a school of maybe 6 discus kept in a 75 gallon tank, with a marineland biowheel filter, and a spongefilter running as well because he knew when he first got the shipment he'd be overstocking for a bit.

x leper x

im exhausted!!!

Shawnie

I think you are taking this personally because you are employed by a fish store that has caused a ton of issues for fish lovers....does that mean you are bad? NOPE...but dont think for a second that walmart and most others are out to make a buck and not in the business for the concern of the fish and fish keepers...if you truely are one of the good employees, kudo's to you!! we need more like you!! but in reality, it doesnt happen too often...we make zero money off the advice we give...we care for the fish and the fish owners (not saying you dont) and we do try to help the best way we can..yes you may NEVER meet us in person, or talk to us face to face...but that DOES NOT mean we are less caring or less knowledgeable for the advice we give...you have taken offense because of your job and have always been defensive since your first post..if you stop taking it like everyones attacking you, you will have much more fun on this site, make a ton of friends that love the hobby as you do, and be able to relax more and not feel the need to post a thread like this one

sirdarksol

Nobody here attacked you, and nobody said that anything about keeping discus was written in stone.

You brought up a theory, and several people pointed out flaws in the reasoning that came to that theory. That's not attacking. Heck, it doesn't even mean that your theory is trashed. It could still work.

Fishlore is here to help aquarists get the most accurate information. If nobody ever commented on poor rationalization, we'd have new members being inundated with terrible advice (note: I'm not saying your advice is terrible. Untested, yes, but not necessarily terrible... I'm just making a more general point here). Without some sort of response, new members wouldn't be able to tell what is accepted standard and what is untested theory.

Even worse, we wouldn't learn anything and you wouldn't learn anything. If we don't pre-test your (and others') theories with these kinds of questions and comments, then we can't trust them, and you can't adjust for what is already known. In any theory in any science, bits of ideas are scrapped and re-figured based on input either from experiments (such as trying a new method of keeping the fish), and on experience of others.

aquarist48

I hear the theme from "JAWS" playing in the background. dodododododododo

x leper x

im new to this hobby and dont have an awful lot of knowledge when it comes to caring for fish, but i can honestly say that the members/mods on this forum truly are lovers of fish and only want the best for keepers and their fish. i have learned so much just by following threads or asking questions on here. i visit my local fish stores on a regular basis to seek clarification/ask questions and it is clear that any imbecile is capable of working in said stores and in many instances the advice given is wrong which could ultimately lead to the fish suffering . only last week i saw a teenage boy and his father buy an albino rts, some guppys, some barbs,siamese fighter,angel fish, some tetras and some type of puffer all without a single question being asked or piece of advice given. it was very clear that no-one involved had any thought of care for the fish as each tank the teenager viewed he advised his dad he wanted 'ONE OF THEM' and 'ONE OF THEM' and 'OH ONE OF THEM' if it comes down to sound advice, i do and always will without hesitation side with the fishlore folk.

Slug

Hello folks! Good discussion. This is a very important and much talked about topic. I like seeing this because i share a lot of the same ideas as JFSUPRE. I've missed most of this convo but i will hit on a few points from my personal experience.

First, discus are NOT that hard, you are correct. And how they turn out, and your experience all depends on what you are going for in the end. It all comes back to that. If you are going for the best possible breeders and show fish, they need daily or bi-daily water changes with 5, 6, 8 feedings per day up to 5" then 2-3 after that. If you are going for just some nice high quailty stock, just shorten that formula up some. If you don't care, and just want stunted discus then keep them like any other tropical fish. They will probably live, but not thrive or get very large and round.

Everything a discus turns out like is dependant on something in their care, and that thing is dependant on another part of its care. Like the more you pound them with food, the more you need to do water changes. Thats really the only reason people do water changes like that, they feed so much. And the foods they feed break down really really fast in high temp water that discus need.

I agree to an extent they are not wild fish anymore. But only to the point that this means they are MUCH more adaptable to water conditions then wild fish. I've seen them kept and bred successfully in pH of 5 all the way to 8. Theres no set range, its all about acclimation. Wilds however really prefer that softer water, because thats what they are used to. Thats not to say you can't acclimate them to other water later on though.

As for schooling i would mainly disagree with the LFS owner. They prefer schools when young, they feel safer and non stressed in a school. Without other discus they get stressed and get sick. As they age and pair up, they can then be separated fine. Until adult hood, keeping them alone is not a good idea.

As for food, to maintain a healthy high quality discus prepared food would be best because you can get them everything they need in one go. Protien, vitamins, veggies, etc etc. If anything a variety of foods would be best. However discus are picky, thats why a lot of people mix everything together in a prepared food. Not all discus will take flakes or pellets.

No carbon? Thats a myth, i've run it before with no problems at all. Most people encounter problems when they don't change it out regularly. Carbon does nothing for a FW aquarium except take meds and nasties out of the water.

Honestly, while the points you/LFS owner make are good to an extent....your plan sounds like a bad idea to me. After having discus for 3 years+, i would no recommend starting with a single fish in a 30gal. And especially not in a 10gal, you can't grow a discus to its potential in a 10gal. And honestly, the one in the 10gal should not be able to catch up in size as the other if cared for properly. I'd look at 1" per month, and .5" per month minimum as a general good growth rate. Depending on food and water changes. Theres no way you can raise a healthy discus in the 10gal. A stunted unhealthy one, maybe.

Point is, discus arn't totally hard fish you are right, but they do take more TLC then other tropicals.

fish_newbie

I absolutely agree with x lepter. I am too a newbie to fish and have learn more about fish on fishlore than anywhere else. Two months ago when I started "fishing", I coudn't keep the goldfish alive but now I'am able to keep an aquarium running nicely (except for the albino angels, they're not meant to live somehow, keep on dying ). And I very much respect the people with "long bar" on their names on this site even though I don't know their faces, their fish keeping skills, or if all the tanks they claim to have is true, but they helped me for the cost of nothing. And as everyone said "You can't trust someone who make a living out of you."

And as for the discuss, its my dream to keep a school of discuss in my tank. But after reading the views this discussion, I'm even more afraid to keep them

candy803

JFSUPRE, ( IMO ) I think you started this thread on the defensive because you have researched Discus and are trying to rationalize getting one even though you may not have the correct setup. That's what it sounds like anyway.

You may have started out trying to share an opinion and then started making statements as facts.

I too am interested in Discus but, I am doing my research. A lot of research! I agree the info I've read thus far seems to make them a very hard fish to keep. Which may make me decide on something diffrent because it is much easier (and fun) to have fish and plants that have compatible needs. Being new at fish keeping, why would you start with something hard? This IS a hobby and should be fun or relaxing or both. It's also a learning experience and I would bet that even the most experienced of fish keepers learns something new occasionally.

I also have a LFS with a fish guy that has been fish keeping personally and professionally for years. I get his advice, I get advice here and other online sources. I think trusting something that is said over and over again by people who have been there done that, is not a bad idea. Trusting one source only...maybe not such a good idea.

If you do buy Discus I hope you post how it goes because I wonder if your theory is correct. Good Luck!

ifixoldhouses

After reading this thread I went out and bought some, I bought 2 from the LFS that he'd been keeping in a 15 gallon tank at 78 degrees for 3 weeks, I bought them for $60 each and one of them died today after a month,they both have had gill flukes, and the one picked on the other till its swim bladder got busted and it died. I bought 2 other nicer ones from another LFS and realized the first two were stunted, I change water and vacuum out gravel at least every other day, I feed live worms and keep the temp at 86, So far everything is great except for the stunted ones, I also learned to tell that they are all females.I'll post some pix of stunted and unstunted in another thread.

Shawnie

this thread is months old and theres no need to bring up confrontation about it

Angela_96

IMO they would be an easy fish for someone who can do up to daily waterchanges and keep prestine water conditions.....
I would only recommend these fish for people who have been into fishkeeping long enough to get a good grasp on the nitrogen cycle, chemicals, testing, and balancing the ph without chemicals.

candy803

Your right Shawnie. Sorry, I was researching Discus and failed to look at the date. My bad.

lew2000

Just to chime in - i have a 100gal discus tank that i have kept for about 5 years. I reserched alot - the web and LFS's and suppliers that specilaized in discus. -this by no means makes me an expert. But for the fish to thrive (any fish) is what it is all about of course. The same when you keep any species or reef tanks, etc. I looked to a number of different sources. There aree web sites, LFS's and suppliers who in fact will insist that there way is the only proven way. Now when you get into breeding there is fairly firm concensus on water conditions. However for general discus keeping there is still ageneral concensus - at 6.5pH or lower. The primary aspect is to keep the pH from changing. And of course to keep ammonia/nitrite at 0ppm and nitrate at 10ppm or lower. Temp at 86F - though again some people/site/lfs will recomend 90F. The other aspect of high temp - is that ammonia or ammonium become more deadly as temp increase versus the same reading at a lower temp.

As Capekate said, I only change water two times a week. I run keta-peat so that my water is at 6.4-6.5pH. There are some keepers who run between 5.8-6.6pH. They are shy fish and easily spooked. My tank is in a quite area and out of the way of family traffic. However, like a number of fish in the cichlid family - you can have some that are very territorial. I got my Discus all at once - between 1 to 2 years old. I feed mine what Capekate fed hers. I haven't had a problem with frozen food. I check my water for ammonia and Nitrite and nitrate every other day. I have a pH monitor. One thing i do know - if a discus starts to loose color or darken - then you definitley have a problem. I provide hiding spaces. my lighting is not dark as some recomend - but it is on the mild side. I have gentle water movement and approx. 15 times water filtration. I do not use RO water - but my change water matches my pH and temp before i add in. I change 20% at a time.

So basically - why try and keep an animal in a certain way to experiment contrary to general concensus? Sure discus that are in an LFS will adapt to a temp of 78/79F and pH of 7.5 - but they may not thrive.

Here are just a few links that i like - for whatever it is worth:

http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/index.shtml

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/

http://www.forum.ukdiscus.co.uk/forums.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discus_(fish)

joshua 74

discus r not 2 hard 2 keep just keep good water and lots of food and they will be fine but if cannot keep goldfish dont get discus it will be a wast of money.

Lucy

Hi joshua, welcome to FishLore
Before posting, be sure to check the dates. This thread is pretty old.
Thanks!

crazy4fish_123

its all on wat you make it all up to be...they just take more time than any other fish

Lucy

Hi crazy4fish, please read my post above yours.
This thread is pretty old. Please check the dates before replying. Thanks!

Neji

I agree with you Lucy, research is the best thing to do on anything

Atavar

Just to add to this thread as my first post on the board..

I am new to discus, but everything I have read makes me think they should be manageable without getting carried away. I just added four juvinile discus to my tank so we'll see how it goes. By popular wisdom I did pretty much everything wrong.

The thing I did right (I think) was to set up the tank a year ago with some (bad word here) "Disposeable" fish. The Tank is a 55 gallon with a magnum filter sucking from underneath 2+ inches of gravel over 1/2 inch of filter pad. That setup worked amazingly well for me on past tanks once I got a proper ecology going.

I started the tank out with goldfish and mollies (they live through just about anything) and a couple frogs and a passel of ghost shrimp. These got me through a couple of cycles and i think set up the flora in the gravel. After the goldfish had the tank for a couple of months I moved them to a pond in the spring and repopulated the tank with a half dozen various gourami. The gourami lived happily in the tank for about a year though the frogs and the shrimp disappeared. The gourami started out at about an inch and a half, and are now three to four inches. A couple of months ago I introduced a school of 20 small neons, of which 16 are still swimming happily. The neons range in size up to an inch.

Watching the chemistry in the tank everything is stable with the exception of nitrates (20+), most likely due to overzealous feeding. I slowly adjusted PH down to 6.0 and it seems to have stabilized about 6.2-6.4 .

After the PH was stable I introduced four juvinile (2.5") discus. The nearest store that carried them is 250 miles away, so it was a long ride home for them in a styrofoam cooler. They seem to be doing well, they are swimming and social and eating after four days. I am feeding them various dry food supplemented with once daily bloodworms.

So like I said I have done many things wrong - overfeeding, overcrowding, discus in a community tank, improper filtration, too much gravel, planted tank, etc..

I have not yet but am planning on setting up a log for chemistry readings.

If you all are interested I will keep you posted on how my experiment goes.