capekate

After observing my Discus, Casper, I feel that he got burned by the heater after being chased by another aggressive Discus. He has a white swollen patch under his chin. Looks just like when we get burned and the skin turns white. Either he got burned, or got hurt somehow in the attack. He is staying up in a corner by himself and I know he just doesnt feel good. Any suggestions on what I can do for him? Any treatment meds that I can use on him, but would have to be put into the tank with the others and be safe to use?
thanks, kate

armadillo

Hi Kate. As you know, I can give no advice on discus. The heater, however. I would be really surprised if it was a burn unless the heater is partly out of the water and the fish got trapped against the part of the heater that is outside of the water. But other people may think different. All I know is that the heater underwater doesn't burn me. I can barely feel it, so I'd be surprised if it could downright burn a fish.

capekate

I was surprised myself, but after one day of cleanning the tank, I had accidently touched it myself and was burnt. I mean, that heater was HOT!!... Its on constantly.
Capser was by the heater when it happened. He just flew right up so fast into the top canopy. I also observed the other discus, lucy lemon chasing him around being very aggressive at the time. So either he was attacked and tried to get away from her and accidently ran into the heater, or was butted against the heater by LL. And the pain made him spazz out so badly in shock and surprise. I just checked on him, he is not doing well at all. I feel really bad for him, he is my favorite youngster in the tank. And he has those eyes that can melt even a cold heart... sigh...they just look right thru you. Under his chin the skin is a patchy grey now.. he is breathing ok, not eating and at times even goes over on his side. I know that is not a good thing and I doubt he will last out the day. Can it be anything else? If he is sick or has a bacteria.. parasite? I just dont know what to do for him....

armadillo

Oh noooo. Kate, I am so sorry to hear this.

Is the gray area fluffy, or is it just a change in coloration? If it's fluffy, there can be some really dramatic recoveries from fungus with the right meds.

Do you use a conditionner with Aloe Vera or another relaxant? I would, if I were you. To help him relax after the shock.

I know you change your water 2x a week, so I guess your parameters are near perfect, so not much relief to be get from that.

capekate

The grey area is not fluffy... just looks swollen to me and all grey like he has lost all his coloring there. His eyes look good.. his breathing ok.. but he is very weak.
I only use Prime in the water during water changes. I can go to the LFS asap if you can give me a hint of a product that may help him relax.. or help him. But unfortunatly its something that is going to have to go into the tank with the others and thats what Im afraid of.

mlinden84

I would add Stress Coat. It's got aloe vera in it. You can find it pretty much anywhere they sell fish stuff (i know walmart has it too). It won't harm the others at all. I add it usually with water changes to all my tanks.

What is the wattage of your heater? That doesn't sound right that it gets that hot. I would try either getting a new one, or getting two with smaller wattages (i have 2 150 watt heaters in my 55 gallon).

I really hope he makes it! Poor little guy.

capekate

thanks mlinden...
Its a 200w heater, by top fin. I have some stress coat here that came with the tank set up. Is it alright to just put it right in the water out of the bottle?
thanks, kate

armadillo

The good news is that it won't hurt the unaffected fish, as it's not really medication but more herbal remedy. The aloe vera is also supposed to help heal wounds, not just to relax the fish. If you're unsure, underdose slightly. And make sure you've got lots of oxygen in your water. Add an airstone to be on the safe side if you're not 100% sure.

OK, I've heard the following being used in the US. You'd have to check whether they're safe for Discus, but I don't see why not.

API stresscoat: http://www.fishandfins.co.uk/stress-coat.htm

API stresszyme & stresscoat review: http://www.nunnie.com/newtank-3.html

Kordon Amquel plus. Loads of our members use it. Conditionner with Aloe Vera.

capekate

Thanks Amadillo
Im going to add the stress coat now, and just add it to a pitcher of water so as to dillute alittle bit before going in the tank. At least thats something til I can find out for sure what to get. Tho I am leaning toward getting some maracyn plus and treat the whole tank if I dont hear any other advice on what meds to get and what can be possibly wrong with the fish.
thanks, kate

mlinden84

I usually just add it straight to the tank, but you can mix it before... not sure if it matters. I've found it really helps fish who have been injured. Just think of how good the aloe vera feels on you when you get sunburnt! I don't have any experience with the maracyn plus, so I can't help you there...

I'm confused about the heater! It really shouldn't be that hot, but it's not like the wattage is really high. do you have another you could put in there instead so they don't get burnt again?

How's the little guy doing?

capekate

I added the stress coat. When I went and checked on casper he was 'floating' towards the filter tube where he became stuck. I carefully moved him from the tube and put him inside the netted breeder box that attaches on the side of a tank. Its about a 5x5x6 size and I use it when fish are too weak to swim around and stay away from the filter tube. So Casper is in there, I added the stress coat after mixing it in a pitcher and poured slowly over the net box. then I got out the maracyn and added that as well. The dose is one pouch for every ten gals. I find it hard to believe that I would have to add 5 pouches to the 55. It seems like a lot of medicine. I added two pouches diluted with water over the area of the net box. All I can do now is hope that Casper gets strong enough to make it. So its a weight and see at this point.
Of all the knowledge with different meds here on the forum, you would think that I would get an idea of what is best to treat this fish with. So for now I have to do something and thats why Im using the maracyn in the case that it is a bacteria infection going on.
As far as the heater goes.. I will get another one asap! thanks, kate

armadillo

Hi Kate

This must be so stressful. It is one of your favorite discus.

My personal opinion is that the burning heater situation is really not normal, but that's a side point.

We don't know that the fish has a bacterial infection, so I personally would not put the Maracyn in. He may just be in shock and stressed out. It is essential that he relaxes, and that the burn doesn't get infected. Stress coat, or something similar, is on target for both these goals.

I wonder whether isolating him in the refuge is not going to be more stressful for him?

I personally would not have used the Maracyn, but let's see how he does with it. I am no expert. I just think that we don't know that he's got a bacterial infection, that Maracyn is against certain kinds of bacteria only, and that you are now treating the whole tank. If this were me, I would do lots of water changes to get rid of most of the Maracyn, and see what happens with the Stress Coat. But again, I am no expert.

I am sorry I can't be of more help, but I will really keep my fingers crossed for you.

I would not keep my hopes up that someone on the forum will be an expert fish pharmacologist. All we have is our mutual experiences, and some of our members have been going longer than others so hopefully will be able to offer their opinion. But as far as I know, we have no vets or chemists on the forum who'd be able to give you a definite answer. Meds are tough to learn about, as the suppliers' marketing information is often either incomplete or downright false claims. It's tough that you have to play pharmacist everytime your fish gets ill, and that there's so little reliable help out there. I know how you feel.

Would you be able to take a picture, or would that upset the fish too much?

mlinden84

Any updates? I was bored between classes and tried to find some information to help, but haven't found anything yet... but I'll keep looking. I really hope he makes it!

armadillo

And that's why I love Fishlore. Such collaboration. I think it's great, Mlinden, hope you find something.

capekate

Hi Armadillo and Mlinden...
thank you... I really appreciate your concern. Yes, Casper is my favorite Discus.He has always been. He was one of the three originals that I bought in July and the youngest. Hes very personable too...
So the update is: I had to go out today and before I left the house I said goodbye to him. He was laying on his side at the bottom of the net/bag. when I got home about an hour or so later he was upright and swimming in place. I couldnt believe it. I would like to let him out of the net/box, but Im afraid that if he is too weak, hes only going to float into the filter tube and get stuck there. That would kill him for sure. So for tonight he will stay where he is and hope that by tomorrow morning he will be stronger.
I do not like to medicate the fish.. and your right.. its so hard to diagnose what can be wrong. If it wasnt for casper being right at the heater when he did that spazz jump and dart and hit the top of the canopy with a loud bang, maybe I wouldnt think that he hit the heater and got hurt. Looking at his chin after that I saw the white area and assumed that he got burnt. Dino says that he has heard of fish getting burnt from heaters and that the glass heaters are really hot. So I just do not know what to think happened to casper. I plan on doing a 25% water change every day and see what happens with the stress coat. is that something I can add every day?
I did post at simplydiscus.com in the hopes that someone there would be able to help me, but at least check, no one did. I figured they were all discus experts there and that someone may have been able to help me, or had a similer problem. Ohh well.. I tried.
Anyway.. thank you for the kind words of support... and I hope that I have good news tomorrow on his recovery. He is a sweetie pie and I hate to see him sick/injured... or worse. Im worried sick about it...
~ kate

capekate

Good News!
I woke this am and found Casper alive and hopefully well. He was still upright in the breeder net and so I let him out, I believe he is stronger than he was yesterday. So will be doing a 50% water change today and will see how he does.
I did get replies at simplydiscus.com and most there agreed that I should not use the stress coat and not use the maracyn, as I didnt know exactly what is wrong with him. Someone posted and thought that it was possible that Casper injured himself when he hit the canopy top so hard and was just stunned. That it may take 24 hrs or so for him to come around again. So its a hard call.. but I just do not know if the stress coat and maracyn is what helped him, because yesterday I really didnt think he was going to make it at all, and now today he is better but still hanging out in the corner not eating. So it is a tough call on this one. My gut tells me to do the wc's and play a wait and see on the meds for now.
Anyway.. wanted to let you know that Casper is still with us!! Keeping my fingers crossed.. and saying a silent prayer!
~ kate

armadillo

That's great news, Kate. They do worry us sick, the little sods. I think Maracyn is a med and as we don't know that he's sick, it's good to have stopped. But stress coat is not a med. It's a disinfectant/relaxant natural remedy, so I am sure that if you follow hte instructions and do not overdose, it will nto do your fish any harm, unless it is not recommended for discus?

capekate

Hi Armadillo, I agree with you about the stress coat. Cant remember exactly what was told to me in the other forum, other than something about the natural coat of the fish and that the stress coat would... " coat" the fish unnaturally or something like that. I'd have to go back and check on that at some point.
So far so good... he is still in the corner resting, but not eating yet.
~ kate

armadillo

That's really cool. I really hope he makes it and then we can all go pfeeeew, close call.

Can't believe he jumped so high he hit the canopy. Blimey!

Are you going to find a new heater do you reckon?

capekate

Yes.. I will get new heaters for that asap! I know they are expensive when you get to 200w heaters, but will have to do it as soon as I can! I plan on getting some visa-therms for that tank. Maybe go with two 100's on each side.
~ kate

armadillo

Wow, fancy!

capekate

I find that the one 200w that I have in there now just barely keeps the water warm at 82-84* and that is summer weather! So its going to be colder in the house in the winter, since we don't keep the heat on very high during the day. So I think that Im going to need the heaters on each side of the tank just to be sure it stays hot enough for them. It really should be at least 85* in there now.
~ kate

capekate

UPDATE: I came home from errands to find Casper stuck to the filter tube again.. poor lil guy wasnt strong enough to pull himself away from it. But he was still alive so I scooped him up gently and put him back in the breeder net. I cant have him float around getting stuck like that, so will keep him in the breeder net/box til he gets better again.
Poor lil guy....

mlinden84

Glad to hear he made it through the night! It may take him a few days to recover, it might be for the best to keep him in the breeder box. I don't think the stress coat is harmfull if you keep using it. I've been using it daily on my sick betta (i do a 25% water change and add appropriate dose). I have found that it helps injured fish recover faster.
I would recommend adding 2 heaters instead of 1. I had one at first in my 55 gallon, but ended up switching to two as it wasn't doing a good job of heating the tank.

capekate

Hi Mlinden
Here is a something interesting that was quoted to me about the stress coat:
Stress Coat: Dont use it on any fish for any reason. Its a basic de-chlor ( sodium thiosulfate) and aloe vera extract. When a fish is stressed they generally produce excess mucus which besides coating the fish, also coats their gills. This cuts down on gas exchange. The aloe also does the same thing, coats the gills , not something a stressed fish needs. A bit of salt to help would be a better idea.
Sooo.... This person is saying that the fish produces the same thing the stress coat does, and I guess we would just be over doing it if we added the stress coat and it would coat the fish more than it should be. Its something to think about for sure. I wish I knew more about this... The person that said this is very knowledgeble about fish keeping. Wonder what Dino would say about this? Is stress coat good for our sick fish or not?
~ kate

mlinden84

Hmmm....what that person said makes sense I guess... I know that stress coat is advised when fish may have lost their natural coating (like when you use a net, etc). I would be very interested to find out the answer... and if i'm doing my fish more harm than good (even though they all seem to get better when I use it). If you find something out, let me know! I wouldn't want to hurt my fish by using it!

How's Casper doing? I was thinking too, if he's not happy in the breeder net, do you have another tank you can move him to so he can swim but be by himself? (like a 10 gallon or something?)

capekate

I dont have a quarantine tank at the moment.. I ended up getting more Betta's instead. I can use the tank divider tho, and I probably will do that tomorrow. I would rather keep him in the tank, at least near the other Discus so that he won't feel so alone. I read that discus really need to be near each other and its not good to keep them alone.
At least this way he is near the others and is in the same tank. Earlier he was laying on his side again. But then next time I looked he was back upright again. Poor baby..
Im going to use some salt tomorrow and see if that helps him.
I will keep update posts on him.
Im going to bed soon and pray that he will still be with us in the morning... I really love that little guy.
~ kate

capekate

PS...
forgot to mention Mlinden.. I will see what I can find out about the stress coat and I will let you know..

nicole

Hi Kate..I've had a discus burn itself on a heater not so long ago and the marks your describing sound the same..although mine wasn't showing signs of weakness like yours,but that could be from knocking himself around...I've read your post over at simply,so my advice is to take their advice.LOL.I truly hope he picks up soon.

nicole

Sorry Kate that smiley is not supposed to be in my thread...I'm having so much trouble with my computer the last few days.