LauraC.

I'll try to be brief with details.
Started new 75 gallon freshwater tank beginning of February.
Used plastic plants, some figurines, blue colored gravel, rocks, and driftwood I bought at a fish store - I boiled it before putting it in the tank.
I have a Rena canister filter, a little jet to increase oxygen, heater...
I added quick start for a faster cycle. Water tested fine.
I have very soft water (added salt), and a light timed for about 8 hours a day. Temperature around 78-80.
Added 12 danios - 2 died, the rest were ok.

In the next months, added platies, guppies, cory catfish, glofish (danios), black mollies, and recently, cardinal tetras.

Had massive die-off - almost all died, some from every species, but water repeatedly tested fine, and fry were born as well. I had to treat for fungal infection. There seem to be no constant symptoms...no gasping at top for oxygen, no rubbing on rocks for parasites. Some more fish seem to be hiding in plants/rocks rather than swimming around....some dying fish will float upside down for days.

I went on a 5 day vacation and apparently the light was on the entire time - brown algae covered everything when we got home. (this was after most had died - but another 2 or 3 were dead when we got home)

I brought a few of the fish frozen/dead to the local fish store to see if they could identify something...Other than saying one molly died while giving birth, they didn't know....They thought that buying fish from different stores could kill them off, adjusting from hard store water to soft home water could do it, etc. They told me that my tank is still new and I should be changing water only once a month - I had previously been told to change water weekly in case there's an ammonia buildup.

They told me to increase feedings from once a day to 2-3 times a day to make sure some weren't starving (some sick ones were very skinny). Now the water is a mess!

Any other thoughts? I bought more last week because everyone kept saying there's nothing wrong with my water, and at least 3 more have died.


I have raised the temperature so it's closer to 80-82 degrees.

We have a Rena canister filter, cleaned well - the tubing from the canister filter to the output (where water goes back into tank) seems colored with brown stuff - algae? shouldn't that water/tube look clean? How do I clean it?

Should I avoid certain fish with our soft water? Stick to tetras? I bought 4 of them 2 days ago and I already can't find one - hopefully will find it when I clean the tank tomorrow.

Wow, that was lot of disorganized information, but I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice, organized or not! I want to restock my tank because everyone tells me my tank is fine, but when fish keep dying almost every day or every other day, it's hard not to think there's something wrong. Thanks so much! Laura

Amanda

What are your readings for ammonia, nitrite & nitrate?

agabr123

when you say that your water tested "fine" do you have the exact readings? you should probably be doing daily water changes as it sounds like your tank isn't cycled, and daily water changes will keep the levels of ammonia and nitrite lower and less toxic for your fish. do you have your own test kit? if so, what kind is it?

AlyeskaGirl

Aw, I am sorry you are having problems. It will get better.

First, don't buy anymore fish!!

Second, don't rely on your LFS to test the water for you. If that is what you are doing. Do you have your own test kit? If not you need to get a liquid test kit, not the strips...they don't give accurate readings for ammonia, nitrIte and nitrAte. You really need to post the readings before we can help you further. It sounds like you tank is not cycled and your fish are being poisoned. Reduce feeding to only once a day.

Third, do a 50-60% water change using Prime or Amquel Plus as your water conditioner (detoxis ammonia, nitrIte and NitrAte for 24 hrs until next water change, also removes chlorine etc.) with a good gravel vac to pickup all the uneatten food and fish waste. Rinse your filter media out in bucket of tank water to get the gunk off, if any. Don't replace media unless falling apart and run old and new together for two weeks before throwing out old one. Don't give the canister a good scrubing just rinse filter media out in bucket of tank water. I don't have a canister I have HOB so dont know anything about canisters. lol

That brown algae you were talkin about..sounds like diatoms. They are harmless and is a normal thing for new tanks...will go away in time....if it's annoying you can just wipe off during a water change.

Fourth, what is the pH? You have soft water so you must have acidic water. Adding aquarium salt will lower the pH. You should stop using the salt for now if you are using it. Most tropical fish adjust to pH well but too low of a pH will cause problems.

So for now you need to be doing daily water changes and get yourself a liquid test kit so you know for sure what is going on.

aquarist48

Great info above. Hang in there and be patient. Things will get better if you follow the advice you're given on this site. Best of luck!

capekate

Sorry to hear you are having so many problems going on in that tank. One issue I would comment on is the addition of salt to your tank. I would stop using the salt as most tropicals do not need that, and mollies do pretty much only when you are breeding them. So I would try omitting the salt from that tank.
Brown algae,most likely diatoms and will not affect the health of your fish.
When you cleaned out the canister, did you rinse all the baskets of media at the same time? You may have caused a mini cycle to develop.
Cloudy water, could be from too much food or a dirty canister. If your tests are fine, and I would also be interested in the readings, You can try a product called Acu-Clear by API.I used it on my own tank when it was cloudy and within two hours it was as clear as can be.
Do you have your own test kit or are you relying on the LFS for your test results?

hssea

You really do need to get a reliable liquid test kit (strips dont work, I compared both). The API Master test kit is by far everyone's favorite. I dont live near a LFS, so I buy all my stuff through Fosters and Smith (which when I went out of town Fosters had better prices than PetsMart). You can get the test kit, Prime and the other stuff you need from them.

pepetj

A few questions I ask with the intention of giving you a friendly fishlorian hand:

What do you mean when you say very soft water? Do you know the GH and KH? What type of salt did you add? How much of these salt?

What do you mean by water tested fine? What are you using for testing?

Did you know Cardinal Tetras, once considered hardy are indeed a quite difficult fish to keep?

What model of Rena canister filter you have? What exactly you mean by cleaned well? Did you know that the film-like organic build up at internal surface walls of filtration system are beneficial bacteria and therefor not a good idea to clean?

How do you time your light? If you use a timer, do you have any idea what went wrong that the lights stayed on 24/7?

What did you use to treat for fungal infection? How you went about dosing?

How where your fish fed during the 5 days vacation?

Did you acclimate your fish before introducing them to your tank?

What do you think of the LFS advice of doing water changes once a month?
Is it hard for you to do tank maintenance or is it fair to say you seem to enjoy it?

Do you have a small tank you could use as hospital/quarantine tank available?

Please try to answer with detail so we can help you better.

Please read about the nitrogen cycle, this info is good to understand for more reasons than just cycling a tank.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

LauraC.

Hello,

Sorry I haven't responded - I thought I was getting e-mails when someone wrote about my question, but I guess not.

In the last 2 weeks I've had 10 fish (plus 3 baby fish) die. I have 13 fish left (plus 3 babies)...they are:
2 cory catfish
2 danio glofish
4 guppies, 1 male, 3 female (the biggest and fattest of all the fish)
3 platies (also, one platy is bigger and fatter than others)
2 cardinal tetras

all black mollies died within the last 2 weeks.

The latest thing my lfs suggested was adding hard water to my tank...so I did a 25% water change, drained our water softener, and added hard water...the test strips now read a water hardness in the middle of the strip. Our water is run through a water softener - the strip shows it to be very soft.

I was going to get more cardinal tetras and maybe a few more cory catfish tomorrow because I thought that as a schooling fish they should have more in numbers. I've had 6 glofish die, so I'm not going to replace them yet.

Is it possible that 2 1/2 months after starting the tank, it is still cycling? What should I do? Should I give the lfs my remaining fish and just start over after letting the tank sit empty for a month?

I haven't touched the bacterial filter (stars) - everything else I've either rinsed or replaced at least once.

I have no problem doing a weekly water change if that's what's needed...the tank has lots of buildup after a few weeks, so I actually would like to clean it more than they suggested. I would do a daily water change if I needed to, but they told me that I'm getting rid of things that are needed for good bacteria to grow.

I have considered the "fancier" water testers, but then read mixed reviews of them, as well. I test the water at home, but also with strips.

I had an automatic feeder for the tank (and separate one for babies) while we were on vacation. - There is a little switch on the light timer which will keep the light on always, which has accidentally been turned on twice - once while on vacation.

I added salt twice to the tank - enough for half the tank each time.

I know I didn't answer everyone's questions, and I appreciate everyone's ideas - I just wanted to post a quick reply tonight and take time with a more detailed response tomorrow...and no new fish, huh?

I will do what it takes to get this tank working successfully, because we really enjoyed it before all the fish started dying...I just have heard of so many different ideas and things to do, I don't know what to do first! The last three things the lfs suggested is that I'm starving them (had skinny fish, so have increased feedings), I'm getting them from different places so they are all susceptible to different bacterias from different sources, and my water is too soft for them to adapt.

I've had opinions from multiple fish people here, and they are all perplexed and insisting my water is fine. Any more thoughts with this new information? Thanks! Laura

Nate McFin

1st-
Cardinal Tetras prefer soft water and a low ph. Soft water or hard water...doesn't matter. Forget water hardness as most fish will adapt well enough to hardness.
2nd-
Forget your local fish stores advice- rephrase that- Research your local pet stores advice.
To me it sounds like you are trying to do too much to the tank. Tetras dont like salt.They can handle it in doses but If you have been adding salt to the tank without doing water changes you may be overdoing the salt. I would quit adding anything to the tank until you can make a positive confirmation as to what the problem is. Otherwise all you are doing is stabbing in the dark and hoping for the best. Maybe more harm than good!
Regarding the cycle lasting 2 months. Yes it is more than possible. Mine lasted 3.5 months and I was doing a fishless cycle. Adding meds can also kill of the bacteria and slow the cycle. Your Fishstore is dead wrong about not doing water changes by the way.
I would also recommend getting an API freshwater master test kit. Test strips are not accurate. Never trust anyone elses assesment of your water except your own. Certainly not the fish store.
Do read about the nitrogen cycle as others have mentioned. It is very valuable info and is the basis for life in our tanks.
No new fish yet either...lol
Best Wishes,
Nate

LauraC.

I will call the store to find out if they have that water test kit and buy that rather than new fish...sigh...

I won't add any more salt...I'll do a water change this weekend, if not tonight...

I will write back when I have the details from the test kit...

Is all this possible (cycling, etc) while I have 3 baby fish doing ok so far?

AlyeskaGirl

I know it is hard not to add new fish! lol You are doing great!

The reason we are saying not to add anymore fish is because you have fish that died and you need to figure out what is going on first before you start to add new fish....slowly. Maybe your tank is not cycled and in that case no new fish until it is. But you need to get a liquid test kit first and test the water to know for sure...ammonia 0, nitrIte 0 and nitrAte less then 20 is what you want. You said you are getting one so that is great!

LauraC.

Ok, got the master kit - here are the results, as far as I can tell for the first time using it...

ammonia - 0
nitrate - -
NITRATE - 10 (between 5 and 10? light orange color)
PH HIGH - 8.2

So, do I fix nitrate with a tank cleaning? Is high PH dangerous? Should I adjust? Chemicals? An API product? I can get it today!

Remember, after a while with really soft water, I added some hard water this week - I don't know what that does to the PH - should I add hard water or soft water?

Also - I assume when I do a water change/tank cleaning (every other week?) I should try to take the water, food, and debris from the bottom of the tank, in the gravel, rather than just water, right? Or does this mess up the bacterial somethingorother?

Also - 2 fish stores - one said keep temperature between 73 -78, the other between 78 - 80! Any tiebreaker ideas out there?

Also - as with a lot of fish before him, I've got a danio glofish hovering near the bottom of the tank, with his mouth looking like he's gasping - not near the top for oxygen, but quick open mouth gasping - as many of the other now dead fish have done.

Thanks! Laura

Nate McFin

Hi Laura,
I would not try to adjust the Ph just yet. First take a glass of water and let it sit ovenight. After it has set test the Ph of the water in the glass. That will tell you if the water from the tap is the same as your tank. If it isn't you may have something in the tank causing your pH change. (decorations,chemicals, etc.) Ph is a little high but trying to change it can really cause problems later with fluctations. A stable Ph is better than a fluctuating one.
I would keep the temp around 78 normally.
Regarding water changes yes you want to try to vac the gravel and fish "stuff"
Do you know what your nitrites are? I see Nitrates are between 5-10 Which is great! Nitrites should also be 0 but I dont see a result for that test.
Are the fish eating? Are you running a carbon filter in the tank?
I would usually say that heavy breathing is a sign a water change is in order. It could be caused by chemical, meds, etc. Did you clean the tank out with something before you put the fish in? The high Ph MAY be related to the heavy breathing if something in the tank is causing it. Salt will raise Ph also so that may be why the Ph is a little high. Again don't try to adjust it at this point. Find the cause first...less is more with aquariums I find. If that makes sense.
Maybe someone else will chime in if they have other ideas.
Hang in there and I hope everything gets better. Keep us updated.
Best Wishes,
Nate

LauraC.

Thanks so much for the help! The nitrites were also 0.
The Rena filter has a carbon filter. Next time I change the water I'll check the bio-stars and if they're icky I'll rinse them in tank water - I haven't checked them yet.
The big guppies are eating well, and I've been trying to make sure everyone gets something - the cardinal tetras don't come up as quickly and are usually hanging out in the back - probably because there are only 2 left.
The tank was new when we bought it and I didn't clean it first - if anything, I wiped it with a wet paper towel to get out any dust, but I don't remember.
I had added enough salt for the tank once (in two stages), and haven't added any more - So I guess every time I change the water, the salt concentration goes down - I don't know if that change would bother the fish.

I will test two glasses of water (hard and soft water), since I have added hard water to the normally soft water tank. - I'll see what happens and keep updating with news.

Thanks so much! Laura

grump

Hi Laura as said salt will raise PH and if you still have cory's in there they realy do not tolerait salt at all and some tetras do not eather...

The fish will get use to the PH in time waether high or low mine is about 7.6PH and all the fishies are great...

And the temp should be good around 76-78f so you have room to raise if needed for med's later...The cleanings should be done every WC with a gravel vac and you will not desturb the BB too much with it...My 75gal gets a vac and WC every other week too and I have found that too work real good...It may get a little cloudy after but it will clear in about 12-24 hrs...

Hope this helps Rob

LauraC.

Ok,

Is there any other way to get the salt out of the water other than just gradually doing it with water changes?

I just looked and there is brown algae (which I understand is ok, and will disappear on its own?) everywhere! I have a huge rock that is covered with it, and the Disney decorations (I have small kids, bear with me) are also covered in mucky brown - fake plants, too. Is this a sign of anything? I assume I can take them out and clean them tomorrow when I do a water change?

Would a 50% water change be good?

I still have two danio glofish gasping near bottom of tank - they occasionally make quick darting movements.

Thanks for all the help - I will follow all advice because we really enjoyed our fish tank before all the fish started dying - We'd love to have it running with healthy fish again, if we can just figure out what's wrong! Laura

grump

No the salt just gos down with WC as far as I know....The brown algie is ok it will not hurt anything But looks bad I know I had it too at one time it will go in time it shouldn't hurt too clean it off just don't clean it off everything in tank at once there is alot of BB on there too...I don't think a 50% WC will hurt anything do you have a air stone in the tank you may need some oxigon in the water or do you have lots of movement on the water surfice for the tranfer of oxigon... Rob

AlyeskaGirl

Below is a link for you to read.

http://fish.mongabay.com/diseases.htm

Most fish can adjust to pH......but I'm thinking your pH is too high for the fish that you have and that is causing the problem. But I could be wrong.

What kind of rocks do you have in your tank?

LauraC.

Hi,

I looked at all of those symptoms. While my fish do not gasp at the surface, the other symptoms of PH poisoning are possible. However, my Ph is only 8.2, which is high, but is that high enough to kill cory catfish, platies, guppies, black mollies, danios, cardinal tetras, etc., all of which have died in my tank? Yet other guppies, platies, cardinal tetras, cory catfish, and baby fish are ok? The symptoms are also like ammonia poisoning, but I have no ammonia in my tank! The fish do not scrape or scratch on rocks or on bottom, so the parasites aren't possible.

Yup, still stumped...I'll let you know about the Ph of water out of faucet and fridge (hard and soft water sources) tomorrow!

LauraC.

I have a danio glofish dying - lying on bottom of tank, gasping.
I will do the test on the tap water after 24 hours.
I will do a 50% water change today.
I think I'm going to take all rocks and decorations out of the tank except for the fake plants - maybe there's something in there, although I purchased everything from pet stores (didn't use rocks I found, etc)

My water softener uses salt to soften the water - could this be affecting anything?

More details to come...Thanks, Laura

Lucy

I'm really sorry you've lost fish ans having problems with your tank.

A few members have asked that you post the readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.
Without knowing these, it's hard to speculate what's going on with your tank.
When fish start dying and acting ill, the first thing to do is rule out water problems.
I know you said you don't have ammonia but nitrite and high nitrate are also toxic to fish.
The API master kit as recommended is a really good kit, much more accurate than the strips and less costly in the long run.

It wouldn't be a good idea to remove the rocks or decorstions. The beneficial bacteria that processes the ammonia not only develops on the filter media but also on the rocks and decorations.

Not sure about how salt in the water conditioner would effect your fish, but some fish just don't do well in salt.

You might want to consider adding an airstone if you don't have one already.

Also. returning your fish and letting the tank sit will not cycle your tank. It needs some sort of ammonia to cycle. If you decide to return your fish, be sure to feed the tank.

Good luck with your tank.

LauraC.

I bought an API master kit - the results were:

ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - between 5 and 10
Ph - high, at about 8.2

I have a little jet motor (separate from filter) that circulates the water more...what does an air stone do?

I'm just really at a loss - There are a few fish that are doing just fine, but the majority die within a week or two.

Thanks for helping me get through this! I don't want to give up the aquarium altogether - it was great before the fish started dying. Laura

Nate McFin

What were the Ph results of the glasses of water?
If you do a WC and skip the softener you will need to add the water very slowly so as not to shock the fish. There will be a Ph difference between the two. If the water is drinkable out of the softener I dont see why it would cause issues.
Its really hard to nail down why your fish are having probs. According to your tests things look fine. Which would point to either disease or chemical poisoning. If none of the other fish are having probs it doesn't sound like chemical. Maybe Copper from copper pipes? Just guessing! If you use a water conditioner that detoxifies heavy metal that would take care of possible issues there.
I still would hesitate to medicate when you dont have other symptoms to go along with it.

Lucy

An airstone creates bubbles in the tank, if I understand it correctly when the bubbles burst at the top they release oxygen into the water.

I agree with Nate, your readings are fine, Ph is a little high but most times fish can adapt to different ph's as long as it's stable.

Do you quarantine new fish before adding them to your tank? It's recommeded to put them in a q tank for at least 2 weeks before adding the to your existing stock.

LauraC.

Ok,

I checked the Ph levels of my tap water, both from soft and hard water sources. The Ph levels were consistant with the aquarium water, about 8.2-8.4.

I haven't been quarantining the fish - does that protect the fish already established in the fish tank or the new ones? Right now, I have several fish that have been in there a while and big and healthy, while the newer ones are dying.

Should I just let the sick fish die, then let the remaining fish alone for weeks or a month and then try again? Should I drain more than 50% water? I just can't figure out what's wrong, so I can't fix it!

The danio glofish is now stuck (sucked onto) the filter intake. Keep in mind, though, I still have 3 babies that were born in this water doing fine!

We're in a new construction house...don't know what that means, for copper pipes, but I would think we wouldn't have them. I do use conditioner when I add water, too.

I had previously treated for bacterial and fungal infections - this was because one fish obviously had a fungal infection, which was cured with the treatment, and because other fish had already started dying. They were the all natural treatments (aloe, tree bark stuff) sold at stores, and I have had the carbon filter back in for a while now.

I have the jet on one side of the tank, blowing towards the top, and the filter outtake on the other side of the tank blowing towards the top (for oxygen circulation)...this couldn't cause a crosscurrent in the middle, creating a problem? There isn't such a thing as too much oxygen, right? I'm grasping at straws, I know! Thanks, Laura

cerianthus

I am sorry to hear such massive losses/problems.
Yes, your pH seems pretty high for majority of fish, but not all. Your losses could've been results of combinatin many reasons including pH.
If your tap is that hard and high in pH, is there any way you can
1. Add driftwood to lower the pH (true driftwood, not one that is attached to slate)? May tint color to tea color but can be dealt with later.
2. Prepare Large New Plastic Garbage Container where you can age water with Peat Moss (to soften/lower pH)?

Adding chemicals may not help due to Very Hard Tap Water.

What kind of substrate/Rocks do you have?

W/ an assumption that tank is cycled , Would not tear down the tank. Too much work and may results in more problems?.

If you can answer those questions, I maybe able to assist.
Wish you luck!

LauraC.

Thank you for your help!

I have hard tap water, but I have a water softener. The majority of time I have used the soft water for my tank - only recently did I fill about 1/4 of the tank with hard water (advice from LFS to help with the mass die off-didn't work). When I just used the soft water, the tests strips showed my water as VERY soft. Now using the test strips, the water now is halfway in between the very soft and very hard water....however, when I change the water today, I will probably just go back to the soft water.

I have 2 pieces of driftwood in my tank, but I boiled them prior to putting them in (recommended for the water color). I could get more and put them in without boiling, if that would help.

I have decorative blue gravel at the bottom of the tank...I have noticed the blue dye coming off some of the rocks...could that be toxic?

Items in tank:
1. blue gravel
2. Disney Ariel and Nemo (thank my kids)
3. Fake plants
4. 2 pieces of driftwood
5. Big rocks that I bought in pet store (sort of multicolored cream/orange/red with decorative holes in them for fish to swim through)

Just a thought - When I add conditioner to new water for water changes, do I add enough for the new water (i.e. about 35 gallons worth) or do I add enough conditioner to cover the entire tank (i.e. 75 gallons worth)? The LFS did test for chlorine and it was negative, but I'm just trying to cover all bases!

Thanks! Laura

Lucy

Quarantining fish protects the fish that are in you tank. The 2 weeks in quarantine gives you a chance to observe them and make sure they're not carrying anything into your tank.

It would be a good idea to move the sick fish into a q tank.
Since your tank looks like it's still cycled I wouldn't bother with changing out that much water. Just weekly maintenance is fine, when parameters are in check.
The thing that kind of stick out to be is when changing the water going from hard to soft, fluctuating Ph's are bad for the fish.
cerianthus can help you with ph questions more than I can.

Fish that are weak can't fight the suction of the filter, again, a q tank with a small sponge filter might be a good idea.

I'm pretty sure most new houses have PVC pipes.

[/quote=LauraC.;583117]There isn't such a thing as too much oxygen, right? I'm grasping at straws, I know! Thanks, Laura[/quote]

I'm not sure about too much oxygen, perhaps someone else can address that.
I don't blame you for looking at any and all things that might be effecting your fish. It sure can be frustrating.

LauraC.

Several weeks ago I cleaned the brown algae off my rocks and plants...I realize now that it may have messed with the beneficial bacteria...however, the mass die off had started before I had done this.

So guppies, platies, rasboras, cardinal tetras should all be able to adjust to very soft water and 8.2 Ph?

Y'know, I'm trying to think if I had any mass die off before my very first cleaning...I was told not to do a cleaning, and about 5 or 6 weeks in, the LFS was shocked that I hadn't done one already. Keep in mind, EVERY time I have gotten my water checked or I check it at home, it has been ok. Ack! Could I have killed all the fish with too much water change? After they told me to start cleaning, I think I did a water change weekly - it was still a new tank, did I get rid of all the bacteria? But wouldn't that show up somehow on the test strips? Sad to say, I would be relieved to find out how I'm killing all the fish!

If I took out too much stuff with either the algae cleaning or water change, would that show up on tests strips? (I just bought the master kit) In that case, should I NOT clean my tank for a while? Should I wait until the water gets really bad? Nitrates 20? Suggestions? Thanks for all the help! Laura