heidi3803

Hi, We have an established 20 gal tank - prob had it for 8-10 mos and we have Mollies and Platies - 3 mollies, 1 full grown platy and 3 babies (one 4 mo old, 2 2-3 month olds), and 2 catfish, don't remember what kind.

For the last few months, about 2 weeks after we do a 25+% water change, the tank starts getting murky again. I don't think it's so much a white murky, it just doesn't look clear anymore like it does within a day or two after changing it. And if we add any other fish they die within a couple weeks. We got 2 guppies, one died in 1 week, the other died in 2-3 wks. We also got a Blue Snail and that just died after about month or slightly more (we do have a baby snail i just found the other day ago but have no idea how long he's been there or how he's doing, just see him every once in a while so far). There is also a decent amount of green algae so the snail didn't die for hunger sake.

We test the water a couple days after the water change and sometimes when the water's starting to get like this and everything looks fine except for the usual things - ph is low and the alkalinity is low. We add ph increase when we do the water changes but we've never used the buffer up stuff the tester says we need. We always put ammonia and dechlorinator in though anyways. The temp we keep at about 74-76 degrees.

We did get a bio-filter a few months ago that's new. We did originally have the Top Fin filter that came w/the starter kit and it seemed it didn't do a ton of filtering well so we got this one but it's pretty powerful - maybe too much?

Does anyone have any ideas what could possibly be wrong, esp why any new fish/snails die?

Thanks!!!
Heidi

jsalemi

Spotted a couple of things right away:

1) Don't add ammonia to a tank with fish! They'll produce ammonia on their own (urine) that the biological filter will convert as part of the nitrogen cycle.
2) Don't mess with the pH -- fish adapt to what it is, and the odds are that your LFS is using similar water to what you have, so the fish are already pretty well adapted to the pH. Constantly changing pH is much harder on them than a pH level that's not within their 'normal' range.
3) You should move those water changes to every week -- that'll help keep anything toxic in the tank under better control.

What type of filter are you running now? Also, what are your water chemistry readings (ammonia/nitrites/nitrates/pH)?

susitna-flower

Eye don't understand.....You put AMMONIA in the tank?

If this is what you are doing, you are defeating the whole nitrogen cycle!!!

The cloudyness is a bacterial bloom, your bacteria is multiplying to process that ammonia. It is the ammonia that is killing your fish...

You stated the water tests look fine. What kind of test kit do you use? What are the readings BEFORE you change water, for
Ammonia:
Nitrite:
Nitrate:

I would also do a 50% change every week. More until your nitrogen cycle is finished. (when your ammonia, and nitrite are 0 and nitrates 5-10)

heidi3803

Man, sorry about that - ammonia REMOVER! That should make more sense!!!

jsalemi

Ah, yes, that does make more sense. Is it a separate product, or something in combination with your dechlorinator? If it's a separate product, stop using it for a while -- it may be killing off the ammonia too much before the bacteria can multiply to keep up with the new bio-load of fish.

If your ammonia levels are high, you should use a product called Prime in your tank and when you add water. It's a dechlorinator that also converts the ammonia (and nitrites/nitrates) into a harmless form that won't bother the fish, but will still be gobbled up by the bacteria.

heidi3803

Ok, so what we're normally reading on the test strips when we put the water in the tank is typically the following:

Nitrates: 0
Nitirites: 0
Hardness: 120
Alkalinity: 80
pH: 6.4-6.8
Ammonia: 0-.5

Again, these are off of the test strip bottle comparisons, so it's not like they are exact as far as the number, that's just the closest color that it shows. So we put the ph increase in because it's always so low, the ammonia remover we always put in and the dechlorinator or conditioner. We've never done anything about the alkalinity.

Just tested it right now and it tested the same at everything except the Nitrates were a 20, still in the supposed "safe" range according to the tester bottle. pH and alkalinity, nitritis and ammonia were at the bottom of the spectrum. So I don't know that it's a bacterial bloom because they're all testing fine, right? It's not like a white murky, like I said, it just looks like if you're looking at the middle to bottom of the tank like everythings out of focus or something - maybe towards the greenish side but not totally sure. And I don't know how to do anything more w/the algae because we have 2 bottom feeders and (did have) a snail and it still seemed pretty strong. There isn't a window next to the tank and we have the light on for 12 hrs a day.....Should we continue to do the water changes every week like suggested even though the water is always testing fine?

thx,
heidi

heidi3803

Yes, the remover is a seperate product - when we initially were getting the tank set up the ammonia levels were constantly so high w/the normal cycling and it seemed in the new water we put in as well....So the fish need a certain amount of their own ammonia?

jsalemi

No, the fish don't need ammonia, but they do produce it (via urine), which is why the tank will go into a mini-cycle when you add new fish -- the bacteria have to increase to handle the additional ammonia and nitrites. If you remove the ammonia too fast, the bacteria never 'catch up', so the ammonia produced by the fish isn't removed naturally.

If you have ammonia in your water, Prime would turn it to its harmless form (ammonium) when you add it to the water. The same bacteria that eat ammonia eat ammonium, so there's no effect on the cycle itself, and the bacteria can naturally increase to handle the additional load in the tank.

heidi3803

Ok thanks, that makes sense. So w/the water being murkey, since there doesn't appear to be a bacterial problem, would you think that maybe it's just an algae bloom? I read that it's not harmful to the fish, but maybe as you suggested above, it's just the mini-cycle occuring at the same time that's causing the fish/snails to die?

jsalemi

Yea, that sounds about right -- the ammonia and/or nitrites spiked, causing the bacteria bloom that's struggling to keep up with it. And the spike would be causing the fish to die, quite possibly.

susitna-flower

I agree use Prime, not a chemical to "remove" ammonia.

Bacteria is not bad. A bacterial "bloom" only means they are reproducing quickly, which is good. They settle out of the water on the plants, gravel, decorations, and in the filter. The bacteria are what change the ammonia to nitrite, and the nitrite to nitrate.

I would HIGHLY suggest you stop using test strips and invest in an API Master test kit. Your tests will be much more reliable.

Fish and snails won't die from bacteria, but they will die from ammonia, nitrite, or HIGH nitrates (over 20). Good Luck

heidi3803

Ok thanks very much for the tips - quick question, if adding only 2 fish causes enough of a bloom for the fish to die, should we only be adding one at a time or is there a way to balance it quicker so they live? We usually end up cleaning the tank right before we put them in but maybe that's not a good idea?