scriabin

Hi everybody -

I'm in the slow process of setting up my first aquarium - just a ten gallon - I'm going out of town for a month and letting the tank cycle the old fashioned way.

I have a question - I have a whisper filter (10-20 gallon size) up and running. How necessary is a gravel vacuum? I ask both for the cost and because I was thinking of using larger sea-stones at the bottom of the tank and forgo gravel altogether. With a strong filter is the vacuum really necessary to keep the tank healthy?

Thanks,

Jonathan

Allie

Gravel vac are necessary b/c they stir up any ammonia pockets and waste which needs to be removed... it could later kill your fish. It is necessary more with other species of fish who produce more waste than others.
I do our mbuna tank twice a week with water changes 2-3 time a week. Clean water will assist in a good growth rate of our cichlids.

Lucy

Welcome to Fish Lore

What's the old fashioned way? Your tank needs a source of ammonia to properly cycle.

I agree with Allie, you need the gravel vac to get rid of the left over food and fish waste.
I don't think a simple one is that expensive for a 10g tank.

Good luck.

scriabin

I thought I read (on this site in fact) that even without a source of ammonia, a tank will cycle in 6-8 weeks, but adding ammonia speeds up the process. Anyway, I have added a source of ammonia- brought some water, plants and substrate in from my turtle tank - those guys are messy!

So really, the collected waste at the bottom of the tank- if kicked up - won't just get processed by the filter? What about tanks that don't have gravel?

Cody

well your metioned using larger stones, which will still colect waste, basicaly any form of substrate will, and by not vacuming the gravel your making a ammoina bomb, also called a anerobic bomb, because of the build up of anerobic bacteria. and bare bottom tank you would still need to siphon up waste off the bottom, no filter will suck everything up

Lucy

I don't know where on the site you would have read you could cycle without a source of ammonia.
Some people use TetraSafe Start to cycle, it's a product that already contains the beneficial bacteria but in order to survive it also needs a source ammonia.

Perhaps reading over this link will help explain things better:

http://www.fishlore.com/NitrogenCycle.htm

clinton1621

Its actually an old way of cycling a tank that doesnt work all that well... basically its only cycling because of dissolved organics that are breaking down into ammonia. However, this minute amount of ammonia will not give you enough bacteria to support fish when you add them to the tank... and then you will be cycling with the fish waste to bring the bacteria up to a high enough level, which is bad for the fish.

scriabin

okay, thanks. I guess I'll look into getting a vacuum - that helps with water changes anyway, right? - say, any potential problem in using the same vacuum for a turtle tank and a fish tank?

So are you telling me the substrate and water from my messy turtle tank is not enough to create significant ammonia? I mean, my turtles seem to be experts at creating ammonia...

clinton1621

Yeah, water out of a turtle tank would have enough waste to feed the bacteria... as long as you dont mind your tank having all kinds of nasty bacteria and diseases that will kill your fish

scriabin

That's not very helpful clinton. People keep fish with their turtles all the time. Are you honestly recommending that I dump my tank water and start over because I have turtle substrate in it?

clinton1621

All I'm saying is turtles are reptiles... and yes it is possible to keep certain fish with them, but turtle tanks have an entirely different assortment of bacteria and other diseases that although doesnt bother the turtles, may not be the best idea for a tropical fish tank. Its very similar to the same reason you shouldnt put goldfish, or any other coldwater fish, in with tropical fish... each one has different bacteria and disease resistances than the other, because they are exposed to and carry different strains of bacteria and diseases. So yes, bacteria and diseases that have no effect on your turtles may very well destroy a tropical setup.

Angela_96

That is true, most of the fish we keep in our aquariums ie guppies, cichlids, etc do not come from lakes where there are turtles. There are a ton of bacteria that they cannot fight off that come from turtles. I have a tank where I keep a toad, and I will never use it for fish for that reason, not even after heavily bleaching that tank.

A good way to get the ammonia started in your tank for cycling is putting fishfood in there, just a little here and there, not too much you will end up w/ planaria (a type of worm in your tank, non-harmful to fish/humans the fish will actually eat them but they can be a bother)

A vaccum is a must have for a fishtank, I have a python that I use for my tanks, I vaccume all of my tanks out once a week and do a water change in them a few days after that (totalling 2 waterchanges a week), it gets all the poo and left over food where i have voracious eaters in my tanks (I have lake malawi cichlids) I would recomend anyone to vaccum their tanks at least once everyother week an do weekly waterchanges.

clinton1621

Actually most of those fish do come from water with some type of turtles in it... almost all water has some breed of turtles for that matter. BUT the problem is that a fish tank is a confined space with no constant flow of fresh water, where as a lake or stream is a large body of water with a constant flow of new water. So this means that in a lake or stream the fish are not exposed to any significant levels of bacteria or diseases from turtles... but an enclosed fish tank system is a completely different story.

Angela_96

I should have clarified that the turtles were not from the same area of the world that our fish were from.
I do agree that the lakes flow more freely and so that makes for a fresher water supply in the lakes/streams for the fish.

Lucy

I told my daughter to use fish food to keep her cycle going, ewwwww, nasty, never again. I had to break down the whole tank. I vote for pure ammonia.

Angela_96

I actually gave up the last time I tried to use the fish food after a couple days and used some filter media from my 55g tank... I have no patience w/ the slower methods myself, I have never seen how it turns up myself, I just have heard of the method. I have heard of it getting icky w/ planaria if you use too much fish food.

Lucy

I cycled with used filter media.....we're just keeping it cycled until she decides what fish she want.

scriabin

Well here's where I'm coming from - I first started looking into fish because eventually (years from now) I'll need at least a 100 gallon for the turtles and it seemed a shame to have such a large aquarium without any fish, so I started doing the research into good species for cohabitation (Sunfish, plecos and chichlids reportedly do very well with mild-mannered turtles) and how to make it work - I got so inspired that along the way I bought a 10 gallon just for fish, which is what I'm cycling now.

Are you really telling me I need to dump the water and start over because I used turtle substrate? I'm not planning on adding fish for at least 4 weeks if that makes any difference.

clinton1621

I'm just warning you of possible problems with using substrate out of a turtle tank for a tropical fish setup... what you decide to do is your own judgement call.

scriabin

Well, I think I'm going to follow my gut and let the water sit, although I do appreciate the warning and will certainly be mindful in the future of letting the turtle water comingle.

RandomKayos

Wow, I'm going to try to be careful here. Scriabin, you got a good start going. Don't over think it. Used water, plants and used substrate should get that tank off to a great start. And with a 10 gal you won't be dumping a large number of fish in that will put the cycle to hard. It take a day or so to settle but should do fine. As for the turtles contaminating things......Possible yes. Likely, no.

Without getting to critical I have to say this. People disagree alot on things and I'm finding, in my opinion, there is to much of a push to keep things sterile and shiney new. Reminds me of parenting discussions. Sterilize everything, wrap child and bubble wrap and never let them out of your sight. Makes a pretty boy or girl that grows up and gets wacked every time someone else sneezes because they have not immunity. Sometimes a bit of grunge is good.

To bring it back to fish. What would make an oto happier. A green tank with good water but lots of alge or 5 plates of glass and sterile water?

The key to this hobby is balance. Yes, you keep a plastic planted aquarium you need to change water because nothing is using the converted waste. Put in a few real plants and get balance, Put in to many and you have to add fertalizer. Or watch a few plants die, become fertalizer and balance is achieved.

Anyway, from what I read you are on the right track. Relax and enjoy your hobby. Pay attention to conditions but don't overthink things.

RK

clinton1621

Sterile is definitely not better, clean and clear water does not equal a healthy tank... but neither does excessive waste and disgustingly dirty water. RandomKayos is right, it is a healthy balance that needs to be maintained.

I still disagree that waste from turtles is safe for a tropical fish tank setup, not because its 'dirty'... but because its an exposure problem, if you are exposed to small quantities of a possible pathogen (ie turtle waste and bacteria) then you may not get sick... however large amounts of that same bacteria (like in an enclosed fish tank) will increase the likelyhood of you becoming sick phenomenally.

RandomKayos

Note he is going out of town for a month....

With the plants and aged water it should be in prime condition by the time he returns. I didn't get the impression he was going to continue adding turtle water and waste so after a month things should be fine.

Oh, and as to the gravel cleaner. Yes, you need to keep your sub strate clean unless you have an undergravel filter that keeps a water flow thru it. Think swamp gas.....

RK

clinton1621

Even with an undergravel filter you still need to vaccum the substrate, or it will eventually become clogged to the point that there essentially is no water flow going through it. Also, cleaning your gravel at least once or twice a month will keep your nitrate levels down. Nitrate is not necessarily a big concern unless its above 25, but without regular gravel cleaning you can easily hit levels of 60 or more. Any nitrates 25 and up will cause stress in your fish, which becomes worse the higher you go. RandomKayos's suggestion about using live plants is also a good idea to keep nitrate levels down... plants use nitrates as food (they also use ammonia and nitrite to a lesser degree)

scriabin

Thanks guys, this is all very helpful. Actually I just saw a 20 gallon sale down the street for $20 - My filter is rated up to 20 gallons, I'm tempted to just change over now... it means more comfort for the fish and/or more fish, right?

DarkRevoultions

Yes you really have to siphon the tank, at least once a week, I didn't siphon my tanks for about 3 weeks once, and the gravel was just filled with so much waste :S

So then I had to do a lot of siphoning because there was so much waste, it took me about 4 hrs to get everything good, I had to do a lot of water changes, and luckily my fishes survived