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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| pH factor
I'm not actively breeding anything atm but I do have a question that's been bothering me. I've been looking into species trying to find one i like to try breeding but I keep running into the same problem. The pH in my tanks tends to hover around the 8 mark. However a lot of the species that I've found all tend to prefer soft acidic water with a low pH.
So my question is how big a deal is pH? | 
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Mentor
| Most of my tanks run 7.6PH and my african tanks run 8.0PH.
I'm not sure how important PH is to all species, but I do know that convicts, guppies, platys, and mollies will breed in higher PH kevels. I also had found peppered cory eggs in a tank about a month ago with a PH level of 7.6.
Hope this helps a little  | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1313  I'm not actively breeding anything atm but I do have a question that's been bothering me. I've been looking into species trying to find one i like to try breeding but I keep running into the same problem. The pH in my tanks tends to hover around the 8 mark. However a lot of the species that I've found all tend to prefer soft acidic water with a low pH.
So my question is how big a deal is pH? | ive been reading lately on the parrots and their spawning...allot of what ive read is the higher ph, the lower birth rate their will be as theres more calcium in higher ph's..and higher calcium makes the eggs more hard and the sperm cant penetrate as well..but if its too low, below 6.8-7, its too acidic and could destroy the sperm...
whether or not that pertains to all fish, im not sure...but in my tanks at 7.6, i have had successful fry in a few different species...so I guess it depends on the fish breed maybe? | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| BB: rofl I should just set up an african tank (don't have a tank big enough though) I wouldn't need to change my water or add anything to it at all for that.
Shawnie: I've read something similar as well. With some species the higher pH doesn't affect fertility but the eggs thicken and the fry end up unable to emerge.
Last edited by Red1313; October 5th, 2009 at 09:39 AM.
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Its more so the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) in the water. The eggs are like little membranes that pass water in and out, allowing the fry inside to get oxygen out of the water. The more minerals (TDS) in the water the harder the membrane gets and the less water and O2 pass through to the fry, usually ending up killing them. This is why a lot of fish do fine living at high or low pH's but breeding usually takes an adjustment.
At least thats how Discus work... | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Right TDS is another issue I need to work on... | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Good explanation Matt..and SA dwarf cichlids too. Many can live at higher Ph but cannot produce viable spawn. Research the species you prefer..South American fish prefer softer, more acidic water. If your water is really high Ph...it is easier to go with those species. (Recently read on a collecting trip...they found some apisto's at Ph 3.5 !!!! That is nearly acid with touch of water added!!!!)
Any way..sorry to ramble.... There are chemicals that adjust Ph...I don't recommend using them. Can cause Ph bounce and wipe your fish out....its too risky...been there done that.
I believe the african cichlids and fish will do better for you at the high PH. And are beautiful!!!
If you really want to lower Ph, I recommend getting RO water...then you can easily add tap water to adjust)...you'll need to find the ratio for you...then its a snap....and stable...just remember to mix before doing water changes.
Last edited by TedsTank; October 5th, 2009 at 12:03 PM.
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| its weird for sure..i have my sa tank about 7.6 /7.8 and ive had a very successful spawns from dempseys, cons, & angels..so its definitely confusing to me as its a higher ph ...wish I was science smart LOL | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Yes many fish today are more adaptable....its in the breeding acclimations. My angels never hatched eggs til I dropped the Ph...then instantly...babies, babies, babies. I have naturally very high Ph. Bought an RO counter top unit. Of cours silly me wants Apistograma's.
It's tough recommending issues on Ph. That is why Research of the fish you like is so important. And to read several info sheets, and info from breeders. There you will find the workable water parameters. Personally I think Ph's in the mid 7.0 to 8.0 are the most usable until you get to weird species stuff!!! Fish are quite adaptable...even those guys at a Ph of 3.5 surely fluctuates...they collect them during the dry season....when the rains come I bet that Ph jumps up!!!! | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug Its more so the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) in the water. The eggs are like little membranes that pass water in and out, allowing the fry inside to get oxygen out of the water. The more minerals (TDS) in the water the harder the membrane gets and the less water and O2 pass through to the fry, usually ending up killing them. This is why a lot of fish do fine living at high or low pH's but breeding usually takes an adjustment.
At least thats how Discus work... | It appears to be the same for angels, from what I've read, though as with most things there's no one "best way" to do something and conflicting information does exist.
A reputable angelfish breeder posted the following to angelfish.net last month (link may require registration, I'm not sure) Quote:
In instances of high TDS whose solids in solution is comprised mainly of calcium, salts and minerals what suffers is not the ability of a pair to spawn but the ultimate hatch rate of the spawn since the above tend to precipitate on any sufrace including eggs. Depending on the thickness of encrustation, the absorption of both oxygen and fluids necessary for the embryo to develop is severely impeded. You don't even need a microscope to view the oncoming result just a good focused light beam on the slate.
The effect is characterised by a dull velvety surface on eggs after 24hrs and whose size seem to have visibly shrunken compared to when they were first laid (normally developing eggs are those that remain vibrant that increase in size as the embryo inside develops). The next stage once the eggs are completely choked is the classic "eggs turned white on the second day" and en-masse. These eggs are not because of an infertile male but on the contrary are eggs that WERE fertile but aborted development (infertile eggs will turn white after 2 to 4 hrs of being laid).
| Another reputable breeder/hatchery has the following in their FAQ section: Quote:
Although angelfish come from an environment where the water is very soft and acid, our domestic angelfish strains have adapted to a wide range of water types after having been bred in captivity for decades. Breeding angelfish in our tap water has created a fish that does very well and will even breed in a wide range of water conditions. There are very few tap water conditions that they will not be comfortable in. If you are trying to breed angelfish from the wild, they may breed more readily in softer acid water, but you will have to avoid fluctuations in pH and hardness that will most likely stress them. For many years, our angelfish hatchery has been at 8.5 pH and 250 ppm hardness and we have had more than just a little success, not only raising angelfish, but breeding them. Even breeding and raising angelfish from the wild hasn't been too difficult in these conditions. More important than water parameters, are your husbandry practices.
| So a fairly high pH but a moderate level of hardness causes them no problems at all. | |
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October 5th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Yes, it does need to be known that its not impossible to be successful in non textbook conditions, it just may not yield as high of a hatch rate, or it might take a little bit more work to do so. Its definitely possible to do at a wide range of conditions.
Ted, 3.5 wow. The lowest i had heard before that was 4 something where Discus and Angels were found in some blackwater pools on a stretch of the Amazon. Nature never ceases to amaze you.
I've said it for years, proper acclimation to start works wonders. Don't bend over backwards trying to adapt to your fish, just get them used to what works for you, you'd be surprised at how resilient they are. Breed them in liquid rock or an acid bath, both is possible.
Love Angelsplus btw, great foods there. | |
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October 6th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Great info everyone.
I guess I'll just have to keep researching for hard water fish  | |
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