Originally Posted by Amanda

A betta most definently cannot be kept in a bowl.

Originally Posted by Jaysee

While I agree that it's not ideal, a betta most certainly can be kept in a bowl provided it's filtered or gets daily water changes, but that's a debate for another thread.

BTW, there is no mention to the size of this bowl. I'm assuming it's not a cereal bowl.

Originally Posted by Amanda

If you even admit yourself that it's not "ideal" why even suggest it?

Originally Posted by Jaysee

While I agree that it's not ideal, a betta most certainly can be kept in a bowl provided it's filtered or gets daily water changes....
...assuming it's not a cereal bowl.

Originally Posted by Amanda

If you admit that it's not "ideal" why even suggest it?

Originally Posted by Jaysee

Because fish keeping is a hobby for people of all levels of interest.

You obviously abhor the idea indicating a much stricter perspecive of what is and is not "acceptable." That's good for you, but other people have other ideas of what is acceptable and until there are animal cruelty laws for fish, they can have those differing views.

Originally Posted by Red1313

True they can have those differing views and that's what life and hobbies are all about. And you're also right, there are no animal cruelty laws for fish. It's a matter for each person to govern themselves. What I like best about fishlore is that it allows a chance to read other peoples views and compare them to your own to understand they're perspective on it.

First: What is a "bowl"?
Is it an unfiltered container? Is it deep? Shallow? How large is it?
Second: What is the level of care?
Are there daily water-changes? How often is the tank cleaned? How often is it topped up? How often is the fish fed?
Third: What about the fish?
Is they're health status monitored? What's the standard for health?
Fourth: What are your standards?
Do you look at behavioral needs? Size requirements?

So to be fair what's my perspective?
First: A bowl is a small container of less then 1 L of water that is unfiltered and kept below the ideal temperature requirements of the fish. The shape of the bowl is a factor with a preference to having a large surface area (wide container) increases gas exchange vs a small surface area (narrow container) which has much less gas exchange.
Second: If the water is changes daily then the ammonia toxicity effects are largely decreased. If the "bowl" is cleaned frequently then ammonia produced by excess food and feces is taken care of as well. Is the water allowed to evaporate excessively between water changes or is the water level maintained. This is involved with water changes as well but since only the water and not the ammonia evaporates then decreasing water levels increases the concentration of ammonia. Increased feeding allows for increased ammonia production through uneaten food and waste production.
Third: Does the health of the fish deteriorate as time moves on? Do they maintain attitude and activity? Are the fins in good health with full length and spread or are they deteriorating and poor? If anyone of these isn't met (fins are deteriorating, negative behavioural changes, etc.) than in my opinion something isn't working and steps should be taken to correct them starting with determining if envriomental factors are the issue before pulling out the medications.
Fourth: My standards? Since I have a farm background my standards are based on what I know. I look at the 5 freedoms that every farm animal is given:
1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.
2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.
3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.
4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.
5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.
If these are the promise I keep to animals that I have no emotional attachment to. If cows can be promised these, then shouldn't a pet at least have this? Fish pose a special challenge because they're so different, and betta's in particular because of the behavioral traits we've bred into them over the course of domestication.
Those are my standards.


Now I'm curious, what are everyone elses'?

Originally Posted by Jaysee

Because fish keeping is a hobby for people of all levels of interest.

You obviously abhor the idea indicating a much stricter perspecive of what is and is not "acceptable." That's good for you, but other people have other ideas of what is acceptable and until there are animal cruelty laws for fish, they can have those differing views.

Originally Posted by Red1313

True they can have those differing views and that's what life and hobbies are all about. And you're also right, there are no animal cruelty laws for fish. It's a matter for each person to govern themselves. What I like best about fishlore is that it allows a chance to read other peoples views and compare them to your own to understand they're perspective on it.

First: What is a "bowl"?
Is it an unfiltered container? Is it deep? Shallow? How large is it?
Second: What is the level of care?
Are there daily water-changes? How often is the tank cleaned? How often is it topped up? How often is the fish fed?
Third: What about the fish?
Is they're health status monitored? What's the standard for health?
Fourth: What are your standards?
Do you look at behavioral needs? Size requirements?

So to be fair what's my perspective?
First: A bowl is a small container of less then 1 L of water that is unfiltered and kept below the ideal temperature requirements of the fish. The shape of the bowl is a factor with a preference to having a large surface area (wide container) increases gas exchange vs a small surface area (narrow container) which has much less gas exchange.
Second: If the water is changes daily then the ammonia toxicity effects are largely decreased. If the "bowl" is cleaned frequently then ammonia produced by excess food and feces is taken care of as well. Is the water allowed to evaporate excessively between water changes or is the water level maintained. This is involved with water changes as well but since only the water and not the ammonia evaporates then decreasing water levels increases the concentration of ammonia. Increased feeding allows for increased ammonia production through uneaten food and waste production.
Third: Does the health of the fish deteriorate as time moves on? Do they maintain attitude and activity? Are the fins in good health with full length and spread or are they deteriorating and poor? If anyone of these isn't met (fins are deteriorating, negative behavioural changes, etc.) than in my opinion something isn't working and steps should be taken to correct them starting with determining if envriomental factors are the issue before pulling out the medications.
Fourth: My standards? Since I have a farm background my standards are based on what I know. I look at the 5 freedoms that every farm animal is given:
1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.
2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.
3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.
4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.
5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering.
If these are the promise I keep to animals that I have no emotional attachment to. If cows can be promised these, then shouldn't a pet at least have this? Fish pose a special challenge because they're so different, and betta's in particular because of the behavioral traits we've bred into them over the course of domestication.
Those are my standards.


Now I'm curious, what are everyone elses'?

Originally Posted by Da_Crinkly

... We had planned to go shopping for stuff for the fish tank tomorrow (Friday) but came down with swine flu so are stuck at home trying not to breathe on anyone or pass it around.

Originally Posted by Jaysee

I think red1313 has it right, asking what size the bowl is - which is what I eluded to. A bowl of propper size with filtration (and heater if needed) is a perfectly fine home for a betta. So isn't that what the debate ought to be about? Minimum size?

Originally Posted by CHoffman

If I were in a situation like that I sure would hope someone with some morals would stand up and say "Um, do you think you ought to be keeping that girl in the closet, it just doesn't seem right?"

Originally Posted by Jaysee

Fishtroy - Fishkeeping is an expensive hobby and it's up to the keepers to stay within their means. If they cannot afford a propper set up then they shouldn't keep fish.