haedra

I sat on two tanks for awhile (Devo and the 10 gallon). But as soon as I got one more going (Poseidon/Orion), 2 weeks later now I get another! O man...

Anyway, that whole thing plus the fact that Orion still doesn't look "right" was making me depressed enough to go out and another betta and another tank for my desk.

I went first to Petco. And what I saw there "might" have something to do with the problems I am having with the last two fish I purchased from there; at least 50% of the bettas they had were either dead or dying, even though every one of them had clean looking water; and I might have even underestimated that figure. So while this might be something that just happens from time to time, I'm guessing there was some undiagnosed problem or disease going around their stock that I managed to bring home with me in both fish I got. I have a small suspicion what it is, but being inexperienced with fish disease I'm unsure how to confirm it.

Poseidon, when he died, had a bit of "fuzz" at the end of maybe one or two rays of his fins. It was very slight, but obvious to me. Now, I didn't think anything of it; having not seen a recently dead fish in at least 15 years, I had assumed he was already starting to rot or something. But he had only been dead for maybe 30 minutes at the most when I had discovered him. His symptoms were: not eating, sluggish, spending all day hiding. The fuzz on the end of a ray or two I didn't count as a symptom, having only discovered it after death.

Moving on to Orion: Ate for 2 days, then stopped eating. Spending more time hiding, and acting more sluggish. And what made my eyes kind of pop out, was the exact same sort of fuzz appearing on the end of a ray or two of finnage.

Now, realizing that Orion had pristine water in his tank; might he have been harboring columnaris bacteria, as well as Poseidon, that came out when the fish were both moved into new environments, and thus stressed? All the dead or dying fish at Petco looked like mine; and a couple had this small bit of fuzz, hardly noticeable unless you were looking closely.

Now, I've only done a small amount of reading about Columnaris, so I'm still learning; and please correct me with proper information if I state anything incorrectly.

I had read that this disease can progress rapidly, and kill fish in either hours or days (*check*). I also read about the decreased or nonexistent appetite (*check*); as well as bits of "fuzz" that might be mistaken for fungus (*check*), sluggishness (*check*).

Given this information and what I saw at Petco; what do you all think? I was a bit horrified at what I saw at my Petco. Now, the store in my area keeps their bettas relatively clean, and does a fairly good job with them, if you ignore that they are not in a tank. But as compared to other stores I've seen, the cups are a bit larger than most, and ALL of them have a warning that the containers are temporary, and not a suitable size to keep a betta. And every time I've gone in there, the water is clear, and there's no feces in it. But regardless of the state of the water they were in, most of their stock was in poor shape or dead. So my thinking was, that given how contagious and fast progressing I've read this disease to be... might this have been the source of my problems all along?

Moving on to the new guy...

After seeing what I had at Petco, I went to petsmart. I've generally avoided bettas from there, because the cups are smaller, and the water isn't as clean. Now, it's not filthy, but not as clean as the water from petco. But I went there anyway, with little other options. At the least, all their bettas looked healthy, and active; most of them were flaring at their neighbors, which I pretty much didn't see at all with the Petco bettas. I picked up another crowntail; and because it is my absolute favorite character from Lord of the Rings, his name is "Aragorn."

This is a terrible picture, but the best I could do for now. Of course, because I used a flash, his coloring looks more reddish than it really is.
I used Paint.net to try to adjust it somewhat, so it looks at least a little closer to his real colors.

Attached Images

aragorn.jpg (202.0 KB, 95 views)

mr. Clown Loach

most bettas are in that condition because the owners usually don't feed them and they have only limited supply of air so it allows room for disease.

Lucy

I've done quite a bit of reading about Columnaris as well and found it can live in water for quite a while (up to a month?) in hard water For some reason carbon helps this disease survive.
Because of those reasons cross contamination is quite possible.
Considering how they're handled before we get them the conditions are ripe for columnaris.....low oxygen, not enough water changes, sudden increases in water temp.

Now on to your new guy. Aragorn is gorgeous! Congratulation

haedra

Thanks.

Do you think along with the fast progression, and the symptoms I described and everything else you noted that Columnaris might be a strong possibility?

Lucy

From what I've read it's most likely to appear on dorsal fin, around the mouth and on it's body. That's not to say it can't appear on it's rays.
I've always contended that the change in seasons is rough on Bettas. The recent rash of Betta deaths on the forum, especially newly aquired Bettas, almost confirms my suspicions.

Red1313

I've got a really good write-up about columnaris that I found on another forum and I'll see if it's worth copy and pasting here (It's kinda long but you can't see it if I link unless you're a member on that forum.)

I love you're new guy!
Hope tat Orin bournces back from that nasty bug. Once you start to indulge the betta addiction it sort of explodes.
Most of my boys are from Petsmart and they usually bounce back pretty well unless they're too far already. Good Luck with Aragon!!

haedra

Well I belong to err.. a "few" fish forums LOL. I might be a member. Could it be the link is from UltimateBettas?

Red1313

no it's a betta breeder forum.

OK so my bad it was copy and pasted in the post so I'll copy and paste it here then see if I can find that actual site:

"Flexibacter Columnaris
Columnaris is a disease caused by the bacteria Flexibacter columnaris, a long, thin, rod shaped motile (capable of movement) bacteria. The bacterial clumps form microscopic columns or dome shaped masses, hence the name columnaris. Two years ago I rarely read about this disease on fish forums, now it is getting more and more common.

Symptoms: Symptoms of this disease include grayish-white spots on some part of the head, fins, gills, or body usually surrounded by an area with a reddish tinge. The columnaris lesions on different species of fish vary in size, location, and appearance. These may appear thread-like, particularly around the mouth, giving rise to the incorrect name of 'mouth fungus'. Characteristic lesions can appear on the back, the fins, gills and belly. Catfish, in particular, tend to have lesions on their bellies and sides. Fins will deteriorate and sores may appear on the body. The gills may be affected, giving rise to bacterial gill disease. It may cause 'shimmying' behaviour in fishes, particularly livebearers. Mollies, for some reason, seem to be particularly susceptable. Although columnaris most commonly involves external infections it can occur as an internal systemic infection with no visible external signs.

Columnaris is often mistaken for fungus, as most of us are taught that white fuzzy growth on the skin of a fish means fungus. However, white or grayish white, fuzzy looking lesions on that occur on normal skin, mouth or fins - especially with a bleaching of the skin underneath - fish are much more likely due to columnaris. True fungus generally grows on infected wounds or torn fins, that is, it grows on dead tissue.

Causes and Course of Disease: Columnaris is opportunistic and strikes when a fish is stressed. Poor water quality, sudden changes in conditions, wide temperature swings, high nitrate concentrations, low dissolved oxygen concentration, crowding, shipping, and bullying can also trigger columnaris. Columnaris will be more virulent in temperatures above 77 degrees. My LFS tells me that summertime is "prime time" for this disease and they almost always suffer significant losses when fish are shipped in warmer weather. Hard water with a high pH seems to accelerate the course.

Under appropriate conditions columnaris can spread rapidly and cause catastrophic losses. One strain has a virulence that is low and it takes a few days to kill the fish. On the other hand, the highly virulent strain will kill a fish in under 24 hours. If your fish has the highly virulent strain, there is not much that you can do to stop it or treat it. These fish often die so quickly that there may not even be enough time for them to show any external signs of infection.

Treatment: First, slowly lower the temperature in the tank to 75 or 76 to slow the course of the disease. Also, since columnaris thrives in low oxygen conditions, the addition of an airstone or lowering the water level to create more splash from the filter will also help.

The most effective treatment for columnaris if the fish is still eating is medicated food containing oxytetracycline. Aquatronics makes such a food, as does Zeigler. Often, however, the fish is not eating by the time symptoms are noticed. Antibiotics in the water would be the next treatment option. Erythromycin (Maracyn), nitrofurazone, nifurpirinol, acriflavine, chloramphenicol or tetracycline can be used to treat the columnaris itself. However, a fish infected with columnaris often falls prey to a secondary infection which is resistant to both of these. Therefore, a combination of Maracyn and Maracyn Two or tetracycling and kanamycin is recommended. CONTINUE TREATMENT FOR A MINIMUM OF 10 DAYS.

I should note here that resistant strains of columnaris are cropping up on both sides of the Atlantic. We currently have nothing that will treat it. Strict quarantine measures should be maintained with ALL new fish. It's hard enough to lose a new fish, but to lose old friends is somehow worse.




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Red1313

I think that if you do have this then you've got the low virulence strain. However after reading this I defiantly seemed to have the high virulence one. Here's a pic of what to kind of look for.
Fungus!

agabr123

your new boy is gorgeous!

i'm going to agree that it's probably columnaris...poor guy

COBettaCouple

columnaris is pretty tough and we've dealt with it once .. aggressive treatment is a must, I think.

prairielilly

Gram-negative effective antibiotics. Die, evil bacteria!

MissMTS

Oh Haedra, he is so pretty. I am so sorry to hear about Poseidon. Columnaris is a horrible disease. I am dealing with it in my 80 gallon tank and it is so frustrating!

haedra

Well I've lost another one. Orion was gone this morning. And this is now the second betta from Petco that has lived exactly one week in my care.

Say a little prayer for me that Petsmart uses a different supplier. I am quite attached as usual to Aragorn already, and I think I will go completely batty if the betta deaths don't stop happening in my home.

It's rough when I still can't be sure what killed them both. It could have been columnaris, but I am still curious as to why the typical lesions wouldn't have shown up. All I got was that little bit of fuzz on the end of the tails; along with the other symptoms like the not eating and such.

I've sterilized my turkey baster and the cups they came in (which I use to keep my bettas in for water changes) in the dishwasher; my thinking was the water gets soooo hot in there that little can survive the temp. I put it on a heavy duty cycle and let it run.

But what about the tank/filter? I was afraid to use bleach because I still see such a difference of opinion on using it. But IF it was columnaris; would filling the tank up with a high concentration of aquarium salt, and either putting the filter in there to soak, OR letting it run with the high salinity going through it for a few days work to eliminate it? Then dumping everything and letting it completely dry? I had read that columnaris couldn't survive in salt water.

What should I do? I'm still inclined to believe that both fish were sick before I even purchased them, based on what I saw at the store last time I was there (out of at least 30 bettas, no strictly healthy ones found). Plus the fact that they both died in exactly 7 days reinforces this for me. I'm still a little afraid to use bleach, as I see it as a still debated topic.

I am seriously so sick of this... I almost just feel numb. I'm kinda glad I picked up Aragorn when I did, because having him here with me on my desk all day softens the blow. It's one of the reasons I did get him in the first place; I kinda knew in my heart that the same thing would happen to Orion. Just call it a gut feeling. But now of course, I'm afraid to get anymore fish from Petco. I know they will exchange Orion for me, but I don't want to have to keep sterilizing a tank every time one of their fish dies. I hope they will give me store credit or something.

COBettaCouple

I'm so sorry you lost Orion .. sadly a lot of the store Bettas come home sick from the poor conditions at the store, but healthy ones come home too. Our only petsmart Betta, Chloe, has always been a healthy little girl with lots of spirit.

For sterilizing a tank and it's contents, I put it all in a tub, filling the tank up with hot water. Everything gets cleaned with paper towels, wash cloths, whatever you have around that works. Then it all gets rinsed out with hot water, dried off completely with towels and set aside for 3 weeks. After the 3 weeks, I'll rinse it all again with hot water and dry it and then prepare it for use.

haedra

O yes... I don't have anything permanently against Petco. I just think that they had something nasty going around with their recent stock; and maybe if I wait a few weeks for a new stock things will be better.

I was thinking harder about the dishwasher and whether it might be of use to me in this situation.

Dishwasher water gets ridiculously hot. I'm wondering... do you think the plastic filter parts and the tank, which is an acrylic mini bow might survive the hot water without damage, as long as I remove both when the dry cycle starts (no soap, of course)? I totally love dishwashers for this reason. I am completely anal about sterilizing anything I use that comes into contact with raw meat, and wash NOTHING by hand as such. I'm wondering if it could sterilize my tank/equipment the same way without breaking it. I've had nothing plastic in there yet that ended up melting; but my plastic cups eventually crack, after they've been washed in there for at least a month repeatedly.

prairielilly

Aw, I'm so sorry haedra...that really, really sucks.

If they treat cup babies the same where you are as they do where I am, they get methylene blue put into their water every day (that's why it's so blue...) I asked once Why? and was told It 'keeps back' any appearance of disease or parasites. Basically makes them look healthier than they actually may be, prevents the surface appearances that we'd look at to determine if they had disease. Most every cup baby I've ever brought home has had some form of parasitism/bacterial issues within their first week of being in clean water. They both may have had something internally that you couldn't see.

So far as sterilizing everything, consider just using ammonia. This has worked very well for me in the past. I just put enough pure ammonia into the tank to bring it up to 10 PPM (in which nothing can live except the bacteria we actually like). I keep it there for 3-5 days, then let it drop off like in a fishless cycle. In this way I keep my cycle but get rid of all the muglies. I've used it oh, at least five times in the last few months and have never had a repeat occurrence yet of any bad stuff.

Don't get discouraged haedra. These things are beyond our control.

haedra

I'm hanging in there.

Would that also sterilize my filter apparatus too? I mean, by running the filter with the high ammonia in the water.

For the record, the Petco in my area doesn't put the blue stuff in the cups. The Petsmart does, however.

*edited to add*

You know what, the more I think about this the more I believe they both just brought something home with them separately.

Posiedon died in 7 days. On the 7th day, I exchanged him for Orion. That was 7 days ago today, which of course was the same time Orion died. Now, 2 days ago I was at the Petco where I got them for something else. And 2 days ago most of their stock was dying, or dead... so they likely had a bunch of fish die on the same day as Orion.

MissMTS

Oh Haedra I am so sorry. I have had so many betta deaths....especially with Petsmart/Petco bettas. Its not your fault that you keep losing them. I am sure that they were already sick when you got them. I don't have any experience sterilizing tank equipment, but I hope you have better luck next time around.

prairielilly

The ammonia will sterilize EVERYTHING. It was originally recommended to me in my first thread on FishLore, when I had just lost all my fish due to a disease outbreak and seriously wanted to dry it up and pack it in.... Worked then, worked since then, about to use it once again on my wormy 20g...I may be the only person in FishLore who's gone through a 2L jug of ammonia in 3 months?

Major tank disaster - advice please??

haedra

Thanks! This sounds like a much easier way to sterilize it, for sure because I won't have to break it down.

Now let's just hope I can find pure ammonia! Although I do have a Sears Hardware nearby, maybe they will have some.

prairielilly

Doesn't have to be 'pure' - just has to NOT have any surfactants, foamers, anything else added to it, check the label. Mine is a 5% solution in a 1.89 L jug that I got at a local grocery store (in the cleaners section) for around $3.

haedra

Well I hope this works! Because I know for certain I added enough last night to get 8ppm, at the very least. But I woke up this morning and tested and it was down to 4ppm....grr

Anyway, since Petco had a bunch of buttheads working yesterday who refused to exchange Orion, I went to Petsmart to see what they had, and I ended up bringing home another. I've only got temporary housing for him for the moment until my tank is sterile; and it's not ideal, being a large bowl type thing. But it's for sure better than what he was living in! When I was there on Saturday, they must have just changed their water or something, because yesterday there was so much gunk sitting in all the containers they all looked like snow globes. I couldn't leave him! I know I don't have a tank ready for him right now, but what I have him in for now can't be worse than what would have happened to him in the store. At least I can keep him in clean water and alot more space.

Sometimes I just can't believe the difference a few days makes. When I was there on Saturday, most of the bettas were in fairly clean water (aside from a poop or two), and flaring madly at their neighbors. Come Monday, most of them were lethargic, clamping fins, and swimming around in alot of debris. And the lethargic ones were the ones who seemed the most agressive 3 days ago.

I didn't mean this to turn into a complaint thread, but I guess I just need to vent a little about it. I fear what's going to happen to the others.. will they just leave them to die, throw them away and get their next shipment in?? They only carry maybe 20 -30 at a time at the most, so how hard would it be to take a good old turkey baster and do daily PWC at the very least? There's a large hole in the top of each cup; so it would seem to me to be a simple matter to at least do that much for them.

Anyway, I don't have any pics of the new guy yet, but I will post again when I do. I know he's not going to be satisfied with where I am keeping him at the moment, but at least he won't wither away and die in the store. And as well, I guess this is a good way to see if he's harboring anything nasty before I introduce him into a tank and reinfect it all over again. And when it's all overwith with my tank, he will have a beautiful new home.

Red1313

<hugs>

agabr123

i'm sorry to hear about all of your troubles haedra

haedra

Just an update on Aragorn.

We are on day 4 since purchase, and Aragorn is doing "swimmingly!" He is ALWAYS begging for food, and doing the "look at me, then look up at the surface for food" trick that Devo does constantly. He also managed to poop quite alot in those 4 days, which I always count as a good sign. He's very interactive with me; spending the day begging, or being playful; only settling down for the night when the lights go off. He's gotten very settled on this being his territory; while he wasn't one of those at the store that was flaring at everyone, if he even sees a hint of his reflection now, it's go time! He loves looking at different things outside his tank too; spending time just staring at anything different. He also recognizes the package of food; and goes completely haywire when he sees me grabbing it.

He's got a bit of curling on a couple rays of his anal fin, but it doesn't seem to bother him; and I'm pretty sure it was there when I got him.

Safe to say after 4 days of this that he might be a healthy guy?

Attached Images

aragorn.jpg (181.7 KB, 20 views)

agabr123

he's gorgeous! he definitely looks quite healthy to me, i really think this boy is going to make it through for you

COBettaCouple

He sure looks and sounds healthy. Just wait until he learns to get excited for food just by the time of day. Do you try holding all kinds of things up to the tank for him to look at?

haedra

O yea, he kinda "stalks" anything new. Doesn't try to attack it, but swims up real slow with his fins all spread out. The pic of him with my rottie figurine was a staredown contest.

COBettaCouple

lol.. he's a pretty special Betta.