sirdarksol

However, there are plants that cannot deal with bleach, and the other chemicals can be difficult to get ahold of (and people may not want the extra expense). Aside from that, some people prefer not to use chemicals when they don't have to.

All it takes is a single sick fish being brought in on a shipment to contaminate the entire stock in a tank (usually in a number of tanks). Most LFSs use a central filtration system that shares the water supply. You definitely don't want the possibility of a fish carrying one of the particularly nasty diseases (like TB) into your tank.

Lastly, is there a reason this is in the Betta section? I know that Rose loves her Bettas, but this applies to all fish. In fact, since Bettas tend to live on their own, and so sort of live in quarantine tanks anyway, one could say that it is more important for other fish.

chickadee

No this is not particular to the bettas. We just seemed to be having a rash of disease in the betta tanks lately and since the bettas are kept in quarantine in cups in the stores, it does look like they would not carry disease but that is not necessarily the case. They are more and more being brought home and placed in community type tanks. How many times have we answered posts about what type of fish to put in with the bettas? How many times have we placed bettas in with the fish that are already in tanks? Do we always assume that the fish we are putting with the bettas or the bettas that we are putting in with the other fish are disease free? Bettas immune systems are compromised by the fact that they are not kept in heated and filtered environments until they are sold and put in cycled tanks and then to be put with other fish for the first time that are carrying bacteria that may to them be perfectly harmless as they have had exposure to this bacteria in tanks (a lot of types of bacteria are present normally in tanks) but this is the bettas first exposure. It is like the exposure of the American Indian to the first colonists from Europe. The disease organisms that the Europeans carried were normal to them and they had been exposed and conditioned from birth on to develop an immunity to them. This was the first exposure for the American Indian and it was deadly. Bettas have not been exposed to a lot of the bacteria before and had the opportunity to develop natural immunity to the problems. Then we introduce fish who have these immunities but who may be carriers of disease as well, but who may not be affected by the same disease as they are immune to it. Am I making any sense at all? To me the betta does present a particular problem when it comes to disease control in the aquarium when you start to introduce other fish and this is why for the betta in a community tank the quarantine process becomes even more important. ANY disease process that happens in a tank with a betta present is automatically more problematical as that betta is totally unprotected where the other fish present may at least have a partial immunity.
Dave's idea that a betta is happier alone may also be supplemented with the idea that a betta is more probably safer alone. Every time we add another type of fish to the bettas environment we take the chance of introducing a bacterial or viral agent that it is totally incapable of dealing with. So this is why I decided that the subject of quarantine needed to be dealt with in the Betta Section now. Not so much for the quarantining of the bettas although if they are going in with other fish they do need to be quarantined too for the problems that they may have gotten from being in a poor environment, but for the fish you may put in with your betta especially.

Rose

Shaina

Seems like I learning 100 new things every time I log in here.

I had no idea that QT was done at all...thanks for all the info

sirdarksol

I never said that bettas who were going to be introduced into a community tank shouldn't be quarantined. Likewise, you should, of course, quarantine fish that are going to go into a betta tank. However, in either case, such a person is generally ignoring one good piece of advice with bettas, not to mention others.
Further, in the case of bettas, the majority of illnesses that we're responding to are fin rot and fungal issues, the causes of which can be found in pretty much every tank. The issue with them is the stress (which could, quite possibly, be what is triggering the betta's illness).
Yet further, many of the bettas that we're seeing who are getting sick are in little one gallon tanks or in unheated tanks, or even in unfilter tanks. In addition to those, I'll bet that in a number of them there is nothing breaking up the flow of water out of the filter, creating far too much current in the tank.
So yes, bettas are getting sick, but many are getting sick because they're forgetting or ignoring a number of guidelines set down for them.
On the other hand, I've seen a several instances of much less common, extremely deadly diseases getting introduced into established community tanks, even by veterans from around the board.
This is the reason that I think that this should be in the general section, rather than the betta-specific section. Further, I agree with whoever said that this should be stickied because I most definitely agree that this has been ignored recently.

chickadee

I will see to it being stickied and moved to the appropriate forum also but I still think that bettas and quarantine are an issue that need to be discussed seperately as they do pose a quite different issue due to the fact that that they are not predisposed to be immune to many diseases that community fish may have developed immunity to and they are more and more being introduced into community tanks.

If all betta owners were keeping thier bettas in tanks that were as suggested, 5 to 10 gallons or more in size and with bettas alone in the tank then perhaps it would not be as necessary but as things stand now, quarantine is absolutely necessary for the fish in the tank, all of them.

I did not mean to imply that you or anyone said anything about the necessity of quarantine as I do believe there has been a general consensus that the practice is necessary and will do good. I will post another post in the fish disease stickies and see if we can get a discussion going there, but I do not think it need be as closely related to bettas as more people may tend to ignore it as not pertaining to THEIR fish.

Thank you for your suggestions. They are much appreciated as I do appreciate suggestions from any member.

Rose

LuvaBetta

I think this is a great reminder for us all. I know I've been somewhat guilty, especially as regards plants. <@#%# snails!>

Quarantining a fish before it joins the betta, though, might not help if the fish has a natural immunity to what it's carrying and the betta doesn't. He could stay in qt for 6 months and never show illness, but as soon as he joins the betta, the betta gets sick.

chickadee

The fish does not have to get sick to give what it is carrying to the betta. He just has to release the bacteria it is carrying into the water and the betta can catch the disease and the carrier fish will never get sick. This is the principle behind the carriers of human diseases too. They never actually get the disease but make those around them who are not immune sick by contact. It is hoped though that some quarantine in the tank will help to show some signs of the disease or other strange behavior and the fish will not be placed in the community tank. I think in the long run it does work but there will always be exceptions to the rule. A book that I have at home and cannot give you the name of right now but will be glad to when I can get home to give you the reference does recommend medicating all the fish in the quarantine tank but I do not recommend it as I do not think that medicating fish when you do not KNOW there is something wrong with them is a good idea. You waste an opportunity for the meds to work later. He (the author) routinely gives medication the first 7 days in the quarantine tank and says this is a precaution. It is in my mind a dangerous practice as it wastes medication and can make a fish tolerant to a medication before they need it.

Rose

HatchetHaven

sirdarksol

The issue isn't just sick fish, though.
As Chickadee said, a fish doesn't have to look sick to be carrying something. People can be TB contagious for weeks and show absolutely no signs themselves. Some fish carry a disease without every showing symptoms. Their bodies fight it off. However, there is an interim period where the body is fighting off an infection but the virus/bacteria is still present. This is what you are most trying to avoid. Obviously, we aren't going to buy a sick fish unless it's a rescue deal, and in that case, we've already got medical care in mind.

Of course, none of us can make anyone else do anything, but you should understand that, whether or not the shop looks good, whether or not the fish look healthy, you're playing Russian Roulette with your tank every time you introduce a fish without isolating it first, giving it a chance to recover from the ordeal of being in transit twice, not to mention the less-than-perfect conditions at the pet store.

chickadee

I think all of us who have had tanks for very long and been tempted and given in to the temptation to put the fish directly into the tank have paid in one way or another for our impulsiveness even with the fish that "looked perfectly fine and healthy" and came from stores and places that we fully trusted. You never can be totally sure of the the fish you buy and it only takes one time to do some terrible things to a perfectly lovely and well balanced tank. To put a fish in quarantine for a couple or even 4 weeks is such a small price and effort to put into keeping things well and happy.

Rose

≈ D ≈

Understood and I agree with the bleach part, which is why I use and recommend PP. I actually got mine from Home Depot as they had it on sale (in my area) at about $3.00 for 1lbs worth, but it can be found elsewhere. I also understand that some people prefer not to use chemicals. I was like that too, until I'd had enough of accidently adding things like snails & parasites to my tanks. That's when I came upon that link I posted and after reading it, it's why I chose PP.

Just my experiences.

sirdarksol

Makes sense, D.
Either way, the option is to quarantine or treat, either of which is an excellent choice. (I actually don't worry too much about snails in my tanks. As long as I keep the waste levels in check, there isn't a problem in the tank. If the snail population explodes, then I know that I've got to step up the water changes and figure out what's adding waste products to the tank)

chickadee

The Potassium Permanganate (PP) is wonderful as long as you use it outside! I tried mixing it up in my kitchen one time and it made tiny little purple dots on my walls that three coats of paint cannot cover up. They just keep bleeding through. I love the stuff otherwise and it makes the BEST net soak in the world but wears out fast. As long as you remember to change it often it is the best.

I also found out not to put bare hands or tissue of any kind into it as it takes forever to come off. Soap and water will only do so much.



Thanks for the additional information, D.

Rose

FishPerson

I lack a quarantine tank. I only got a 10gallon for my b-day, so if i DO get a bigger tank one day, I may turn the 10g into a QT.

plant crab

I'm wondering if someone can help me with the quarantine tank thing.

I have a 55 gal and I want to add more fish. I also have a 10 gal and i think the qt tank idea is a good one, but if I set up a new tank, how do i handle the nitrogen cycle when it starts up again? Should I be changing the water daily? If so, wouldn't I end up with a tank with completely different parameters at the end of the four weeks which would stress the fish out all over again when I move him to my community tank?

I'm especially curious because i'm thinking of getting oto's next and I'm worried that two transfers will be really hard on them as they are such delicate fish.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, and I'm not questioning the QT tank thing (ultimately it is the best thing to do) I'm just trying to figure this out.

chickadee

The simple answer is to put a couple of small (up to 10 gallon sized) sponge filters tucked into the corners of your 55 gallon tank instead of airstones to provide air movement and additional oxygenation of the water. At the same time they will be growing bacterial beds that will be able to be used as filters for a quarantine tank if ever needed for the 10 gallon tank. Then when you get more fish, just fish one of them out and use it in the quarantine 10 gallon tank to quarantine the new fish and as long as no issues of health appear to cause problems in the quarantine tank needing medication or causing death of any of the new fish the sponge filter can be returned to the 55 gallon tank when the quarantine period is over. If there is a problem the sponge part of the filter can be replaced when the other part is cleaned and then it can be put back into the 55 to be cycled into another cycled filter for reuse. They are also a back up for possible help if your main filter ever needs a little help if there is a time when it goes into a mini-cycle for any reason. If you want to use the slightly larger sponge filters they can even take the place of the main filter if it ever fails. I never run a tank without a small sponge in it somewhere anymore as I usually end up needing one somewhere, in a quarantine tank or a hospital tank or a bucket occasionally if I run out of room.
On the subject of Otocinclus, they are fragile and the normal quarantine period for them is 30 days due to the fragility of their systems. Not that they are so terrible to have but the handling they receive during their capture (they are not bred in captivity but caught in the wild with the use of cyanide) and the problems they face during their care in petstores make them more likely to be problems to keep during the first 30 days. Once they make it past the first 30 days, the chances of them living a very normal lifespan of a matter of years is excellent. That is why we generally recommend not introducing them to the main tank for the first 30 days as that is the critical period for their adjustment. After that they generally are considered to be as much a safe risk as any other fish. The important thing to watch for when purchasing them is to make sure that you are not sold any fish without little round bellies but not totally bloated fish and they should not be red and feverish looking on their bellies. Hot pink is okay but not reddened and sick looking. Milky white is wonderful and little pot bellies are lovely in Otos. If you want to know all about Otos they do have their own website. It is: http://www.otocinclus.com

They are wonderful little fish and I have owned several and still have some. The ones I have are quite old (over a year and a half) and are some of my favorite little fish. They are quite loving and get along well with the other fish and loved my Alexander very much until he passed. They took naps together every afternoon. (Alexander was one of my favorite bettas) I still have a picture of two little Otos and a little betta butt under the airstone hiding taking their afternoon nap together.

I hope some of this has been helpful.

Rose

P.S. It takes about 2 weeks to seed a sponge filter in a cycled tank to my satisfaction.

plant crab

Wow, Rose - Thank you.. I will definately try that.

Jake

My 2 cents on quarantining plants:

Putting anything in quarantine for a while is never a bad idea. If I get plants from someone I don't know, I do a potassium permanganate dip and then quarantine a week or so.

If I know the person, and have received countless boxes of plants from them, I might do the dip and then go ahead and add to tank.

Plants from overseas DEFINITELY need a quarantine period. I have a buddy who killed a whole tank of shrimp just by adding plants to a tank he had rinsed off repeatedly. There was still a bit of bromide gas residue on the plants after all that rinsing, which was more than enough to kill every single shrimp.

If you aren't on a first name basis with the owners of your local pet store, I would quarantine their plants as well. Even if I were on a first name basis with them, if they had plants in tanks with a central filtration tying them into other tanks with fish, I would still dip and quarantine.

Even if you trust the person or people you're getting plants from, that doesn't mean that there is no way they could unintentionally give you something you don't want, as in icky diseases, carnivorous larvae ( dragonfly nymphs, etc.), pest snails, duckweed, etc. Dipping and THEN quarantine is usually your best bet. A plant shouldn't mind a couple of weeks or so by itself.