BettasfortheBabe

As of last night, everyone was doing JUST fine, and this morning - I see no fry. None at all, from the hundreds - no thousands - that were well and alive before bed last night. I should mention the "accident" that happened while I was at the store and away from the house.

This is how it was relayed to me by my husband (who Im sure is playing it down a lot because Im so mad at him I could strangle him): I left he and our 3 year old at home (took our infant with me) while I went to pick up some prescriptions. Whats 15 minutes out of the house, right? Well, during that time when he decided to sit on his rear and NOT supervise our spirited toddler, she apparently got her wooden stool, pulled it up to the fish tank, then proceeded to CLIMB ONTO THE AQUARIUM STAND (let me insert here that there isn't really room for her to climb onto it, I don;t know HOW she did it) and it looks as if all the movement sloshed the water in the tank around, causing half the bubble nest to slip out of the cup and the babies to rain down into the gravel below. When I got home from the store, swimmer was frantically trying to collect his babies, but most of them seemed just fine and swimming back up into the nest themselves. Three year olds will be kids, and I know she was just trying to get a better look at the fry which were just big enough for her to see - all of my anger lands on my stupid, irresponsible husband.
This morning, I see NO FRY and Swimmer is merely swimming around like his usual self. Have I lost the spawn? Could the fry just be hanging out in the gravel? Its been 3 days or so since they hatched...... suggestions?

Shawnie

im so sorry other than a wait and see im not sure what else you can do..but if you try again, bare bottoms are best so daddy can find them....I Hope you find some alive!

Allie

If you don't see any then there probably isn't any. If he isn't protecting anything than they are gone. Most LFS betta fry don't make it due to the fact that they aren't raised for breeders. But if you want them to breed again you can condition them with frozen blood worms or brine shrimp for two weeks before spawning...then you could have some survivors.

sirdarksol

I've never thought that it's so much of a matter that these bettas weren't bred to breed (or the "common" bettas sold at our pet stores wouldn't be there, because they wouldn't breed terribly readily), but that the conditions that they were kept in prior to being purchased having harmed them. The bettas like the ones you got for breeding have likely been kept in much better conditions (because of their potential value, as opposed to the dime-a-dozen bettas sold in those awful little cups). Other animals suffer losses of fertility when kept in toxic conditions, so it stands to reason that bettas would, too.
Then there is the issue of the betta's limited age of viability. Bettas are most fertile from something like 6 months to 18 months, if I recall correctly. That's a pretty small window, when you consider that bettas can last for four or more years.

If I ever have the money to do so, I'd like to run a breeding program to test this. If I can get a couple of pairs of store-bought bettas to breed, I think that their children will breed readily enough, as they will receive top-quality care from day one.

Shawnie

if you ever find the time, and want to do so, I have alot of the supplies...be glad to send them your way!!!!! and gosh knows our bettas are well taken care of and conditioned to no end LOL

sirdarksol

Thank you. That would make things quite a bit easier. Still need to find the time.
Maybe if a novel or two gets sold, I'll be able to pull it off.

BettasfortheBabe

We'll see over the next few days if any emerge from the floor of the tank - with no predators, I read that it was entirely possible for fry to live down in the gravel until they are large enough to swim out themselves. However, I think we lost this spawn, and my hope that there will be a few survivors is probably just wishful thinking

On that note, the male and female are making googly eyes at each other again through the glass of their respective tanks. We'll start the conditioning process all over again (we still have our freeze dried, and now frozen bbs) and see if they won't spawn again, especially now that they have a little spawning experience. And me too!

Shawnie

just do the bare bottom this time...and only a few inches of water in the spawning tank...goodluck!!

and sir, just lemme know when and ill send ya a lil care package I have a few spare small tanks and god knows enough betta's hahahah....id be willing to share

Allie

A lot of those betta in lfs come young and then sit there for months in those death cups. If they were meant for breeding they would not be allowed to go in those conditions. From my understanding is they breed betta for fighting, for pets and for breeders. IF you are lucky enough to catch the shipment and get them young that would be the best time to get veils for breeders.
If I could find healthy Betta from a local fish store I would get veil tails and breed them too. Most of my past betta were veil tails and were my favorite until I got a crowntail. I was going to try to breed Rubin, my Walmart CT but he has a likely cyst or tumor problem so I am not putting him under that kind of stress.
My plan with my breeding project is to keep as many pairs as I can to see if Betta raised from scratch so to speak are healthier than getting them from elsewhere. Or if Betta are just hard to keep healthy.

sirdarksol

This is my concern. The fact that they exist means they're capable of breeding. The breeders likely keep their breeding stock in better conditions, while sending the rest out to stores.

One advantage that I may have over someone attempting to breed the Petsmart bettas is that I know of two separate stores that keep their bettas in larger tanks. They're still in less-than-ideal conditions, but they aren't wallowing in ammonia.

Edit: Woops, sorry for the hijack. I'm done now.

Martinismommy

I'd like to 1st say how sorry I am that you are going through this..I honestly don't think the problem was the 3 year old rocking the nest..If the fry were a healthy spawn they would have been able to survive that...I do however think that the fact that you have gravel in a Betta spawn tank could be causing the problem as well as not removing the male after day 2....

Don't be surprised if you end up with fry after all of this...I am a little concerned about how they will find their food in the gravel...I wish you luck and don't be too hard on the hubby or the kid...

P.S. I have a spawn now from a pet store male...So I'll keep you all informed as to the progress..I plan on keeping a pair out of it so we'll see how the next generation turns out...It was my Copper lavender boy "Dunn" bred to my Red Dragon import female..Right now all looks great!

Pandora

Betta fry are super tiny... and can be really difficult to see once they leave the nest. It's quite possible there are still a bunch in there, especially if you have gravel where they could easily hide between the stones. If you're able, and really want to try to raise this spawn, I'd suggest carefully siphoning the entire contents of the tank into a container, really getting down into the gravel, and remove the gravel completely into another container, and add a bit of dechlorinated water the same temp. Then use a smaller (like margarine container size) container to slowly scoop the water back into the tank... I'll bet you'll have fry in there! Probably will have some slowly show up in the gravel container too... but you're really best to have that out since it'll be pretty much impossible to keep the tank clean with it in.

As for pet store fish, etc. my first pair I spawned were pet store veils. I did make an effort to find a young, healthy female, and they were conditioned very well before spawning. I ended up with only 15 survivors, probably mostly through my own mistakes. The really strange part was they were incredibly female heavy, all but 3 were girls! Anyway, I do think the conditions a lot of these guys are subjected to in coming from breeder to store to home takes it's toll. Of the few bettas I've purchased from stores, none of them lived very long, and the ones I tried breeding really didn't last long after. Even the guys I've had shipped directly from breeders have had issues, though less than the store fish. The ones I've bred and raised myself, very very few health problems at all, and only when they've been exposed to something new fish have brought in, or after obvious stress events.

BettasfortheBabe

OK, so we have decided to let the tank be for awhile and see what happens. I am a total believer in the cliche "life finds a way", as illustrated already by our common petstore, previously "death cup" living bettas their readiness to breed. As far as the gravel was concerned, we got mixed ideas from the research we did and from our fish guy: some made it seemed like the gravel would make no difference as long as there are no predators in the fry tanks, but next time around we will remove the gravel and let the bottom be bare. I am certain there is way too much water in there too, but we failed to plan ahead and remove a majority of the water this time before spawn. We will next time.
Whats the official consensus about when to remove the male from the fry? We were told to wait until day 5, or until the fry were swimming horizontally and could eat on their own

Martinismommy

I have only had 6 spawns so I'm no expert but my opinion on when to remove a male is that every situation is different..There is really no concrete answer to that...I have removed the Dad on day 2 and had good luck and I have one Dad who stays in for a week...I think you just have to pay close attention to how the Dad is acting...

Lucy

I'm really sorry to hear you lost your fry. It must be devastating to you.

KyWildFish

Not to enable hijacks, but all this information is a great read on some of the idiosyncrasies of breeding bettas. A lot of people seem to have anecdotal experiences that would be beneficial to anyone interested in breeding these little fish.

One question for Martinismommy. You mentioned keeping a pair from a certain breeding. How do you only keep a pair? Do you cull or have some other way to home the other fry? Just curious.

Pandora

I usually only keep a pair or at most 2 from a spawn... I've brought my extras to local auctions, a few local fish stores, some private sales through my aquarium club, and given them to friends and family members. Some breeders cull any they don't want, most have some combination of culling and selling/rehoming, and only keep back a few pairs for their breeding program. It's like breeding any animal for which there is a standard, keep and reproduce only the ones that have the traits you are looking for.

Matt

I am soo terribbly sorry. I Hope You Do Have Some Little Guys Hiding In The Gravel. It sounds like you are really mad with your husband but it wasnt entirely his fault.

Sorry

-Matt

Plecolover12

Three year olds are very naughty. I would blame the three year old because she was the one who did it, not your husband. I hope your fry are okay, if they are anywhere.

Matt

Yes indeed 3 year olds are very naughty.

Shawnie

blame a 3 year old? how old are you plecolover? a 3 year old doesnt know better

Plecolover12

Shawnie, you should see what my three year old sister does! She gave my fish food when the fish did not need it and I was worried my fish was going to get overfed! See how naughty they can be? But I have to admit, they do not know better.n It is still naughty to do that, though.

Shawnie

you cant blame her...blame yourself for leaving the fish food where she could reach it

Plecolover12

I think we should continue this chat somewhere else.

Red1313

<hugs>
sorry about your fry I hope that you've still got a few kicking around. However I'd be concerned b/c betta's (even full grown) need air from the surface to survive. I don't see how fry would be and different...

on petstore betta's.
It would be a personal call to breed or not. Some are too old, some too ill, some just fine. Hard to say where they've come from and what sort of background stock you'll get off them. I've got one boy that i would love to try to breed (I won't) but if I could figure out a way to develop his color as a strain I would be ecstatic!

BettasfortheBabe

You know, the betta's from both our local chain pet store and our small, speciality fish store seem quite healthy in comparison to some of the conditions they have been described being found in on the forums here. It may be just a case where our local pet store employees are more diligent about removing sick, dying, or dead from public view, but Im not sure. Our betta's are quite vital, and I can't say I've seen any dead one's (and we visit the pet store a few times a week, its one of our favorite outings) and while, yes, confined to small cups, their water has always been clean, clear, and they swimming around like betta's do. Again, the high ambient temperature and levels of humidity present, even in the dead of winter, in northern california probably allow for the betta's to last longer when neglected.

Im over the annoyance with my husband, and it was very fleeting with my 3 year old. And, indeed, 3 year olds are quite naughty if left unsupervised for even a MOMENT - we as parent's are here to make sure that curiosity doesn't kill our "cats" so to speak - or our fish! The little miss has gotten ahold of some fish food and over-fed goldfish we've had more than once in the past. My husband was SUPPOSED to be acting the part of the responsible party, but he is much more prone to taking his eyes off her, or spacing in front of the TV, or experiencing typical male oblivion (don't get me wrong, I love you "guys") - hence my extreme annoyance with him. TOTALLY his fault. I don't blame the monkey for being a monkey!

I keep checking the tank for fry, but Swimmer isn't really playing the father part any more which I think is a better sign that its likely no fry are really alive any longer. He doesn't look particularly fat, so I don't think he ate them, and when we fed him he ate ravenously. Poor guy.

pamd

I'm so sorry you probably lost the spawn.

I'll bet your little girl decided to "feed" them who-knows-what. I guess this because of there having been so many one night and not seeing any the next morning. I think you should get Dad out of there as soon as possible if you haven't already done so. He's obviously less sensitive than the babies, but if something toxic killed them all off overnight, whatever it is can't be good for him. I'd dismantle and thoroughly clean the tank before using it again.

Martinismommy

No, I don't cull the leftovers.....I have many tanks set up and have the room to keep several Bettas until they find homes...Right now I have most of my babies spoken for...I'll keep the best pair for breeding and whatever is left will be sold/traded to my LFS......

Matt

Sorry To hear About The Fry

-Matt