pepetj

I received my female bettas a couple of weeks ago. They were ordered through my LFS and made a long flight: South-Korea-Los Angeles-Dallas-Miami-Santo Domingo. Their origin is from a breeder in Thailand. I took advantage of an ongoing order so the price was quite good -USD3.00 each.

I am housing 17 juvenile females -all beautiful and diverse PlaKats- in a 10gal tank. I had my reserves on posting this because I don't want to raise controversies as for the 1" of adult fish length per gallon.

I am likely to upgrade to a 20gal and use a DIY 5gal wet/dry sump filter for them (I built the overflow today) so I can build the "playground" I have in mind.

I did my search around. I am not playing God or doing things on ignorance. Other experienced and caring betta keepers tried this and I am learning from them.

I prepared this tank carefully, which as some of you know I had to take out of service, clean very well and set-up again after loosing 11 locally raised adult female Bettas in a virulent strain of columnaris in a 24 hours span as they got home.

I had the filters running in a healthy tank for over a month. I did a "seeded (filter+substrate+plants+driftwood)" fishless cycling with ammonia solution in 6 days.

I use R/O processed drinking water to which I add trace minerals, filter through peat fiber and use one Indian Almond Tree Leaf. Twice a week 50% water changes.

pH at 6.8. Temp steady at 26-28C (150W heater). 4.5-6.5dGH 2.5-4.0dKH.

Ammonia and Nitrites in zero. Nitrates stay at 5-10ppm range.

I am using two corner filters (fiber floss) and one mini-canister filter that nominally handles 80GPH (I bet it's less than that). One dual airpump for the sponge filters, one single output small airpump for the micro-bubble wall device.

Thin substrate 70% natural river sand 30% Eco-Complete. Lightly planted with Anubias Barteri, Vallisneria and Hornwort.

Working on their toys. I placed three small sized driftwoods, one clay pot (made the hole bigger and smoothed it edges), one tunnel... trying different DIY toys.

I received five males mixed in the order -I took several pics to all individuals to rule in/out through the ovopositor organ by zooming the pic. One male died -my DIY tank separator failed.

I gave two of the young males as gift (one to my nephew, a fishlorian newbie, the other one to a best friend, a fishlorian to be). I am keeping the other two.

My ladies are doing great, during the first three days there were some frightening moments of aggression -almost as males do- but ever since, they seem to be having a great time.

Feeding on Tetra's bloodworms, water flies and brine shrimp, in gel. As well as mini granules, mini pellets and pulverized flakes.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

PS the tank is at floor level now, I placed the mini-canister up-front as I am closely monitoring the set-up. I turned off the corner filters airpump to take this pics.

Attached Images

	Betta Sorority 10gal 1.JPG (488.0 KB, 140 views)
	Betta Sorority 10gal 2.jpg (71.3 KB, 119 views)

Lucy

Pepe, I'm really surprised you're trying this in such a small tank.
With 17 of any kind of fish let alone bettas in a 10g there's bound to be aggression.

Red1313

Good Luck, I know that sororities if you can get them to work are gorgeous! I hope that things work out well.

pepetj

http://www.ultimatebettas.com/index.php?showtopic=12193

This is one of the sources that began this project. An experienced fishkeeper is my mentor in this too.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Lucy

That site is a good source of information. Good luck.

pinkfloydpuffer

Wow, my two girls are in a divided 5g and they act like they wanna rip each other apart. All I can say is, good luck!

Shawnie

tank looks great and you got some beautiful girls for sure....Im not worried about the bioload or inch per fish rule as much as the size tank they are in as lucy said.....girls are way more mean in all of my betta's and 10 gals is almost impossible to get away from one another...I wish you well tho!!

Martinismommy

You have some very beautiful little ladies in that tank.....I hope this works for you.....I plan on using my 55 gallon for a sorority tank when my girls are big enough....They have a lot of hiding places and plenty of room......I'll be interested in seeing how this goes for you.....

dr.fluffanutter

Very pretty girls, though I am also worried for so many of them in such a small tank.
I noticed that in the pics some of the girls have the vertical "I'm really mad" lines going. Have they relaxed since then?

capekate

Hi Pepe
from reading your other posts and threads, I know that you take very good care of your fish and research your work, which obviously you have. Ultimate bettas is a very good site for anything Betta.
But I do have to say, with all the work and expense you have put into the tank, I wish I would have read that you picked up at least a 20g tank for your girls. 17 of them in a 10g tank is really asking for more aggression issue's than you may have in at least a 20g tank where they would have more room.
But with that said, I really wish you the best of luck with your new girls.

Annadvn

The vertical lines are signs they are ready to breed. I would be concerned if they showed the horizontal "stress" bars but i'm sure you would know that.

I'm guessing the breeder you got them from kept the girls in a big tank together? I heard its helps if they have always lived together. I agree with the others though a bigger tank might be better for them.

I hope this works out for you, good luck, keep us posted.

Anna

dr.fluffanutter

Oops, mixed up directions. I named the bars wrong, but the ones on the girls in the picture are the ones indicating stress, regardless of my absesntmindedness.

And my question still stands.

Emory

Hi Pepe!

Just one question: How did you widen the hole in your terra cotta pot?

pepetj

I ordered a 20gal tank for them today, should get it in a week or 10 days. I will move them there in a couple of weeks if it makes it on time (seeded fishless cycle). I need them to have more room and I want to aquascape that tank as a play-ground.

And, honestly, I would like to keep the 10gal running for quarantine/hospital use. That tank has been extremely useful for those purposes.

They were raised together, all came from the same breeder, they might even be siblings at least they seem to be at the same stage of development. They are getting ready to spawn (developmentally wise).

In general they are curious, playful and fear no one. Some of them eat from my fingers already! Some are kind of laid-back. There's a hierarchy there that I don't fully understand. This is a tank like no other.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

pepetj

It's a clay pot. I let it underwater in another tank for a month or so. I used a drill bit and applied some pressure with one hand as I hold it firmly with the other to damp vibrations a bit. I used sand paper to smooth the edges. A bit messy but easy to do.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

capekate

Hi Pepe
Great news on buying the 20g tank! Please keep us posted... I hope it all goes well.

Emory

Thanks! I shall be getting my drill out this week!

pepetj

Horizontal stripes are common in Pla Kat Bettas juveniles, indeed that is one of the reasons I like them. Kind of the "as close to nature" trait. These may not be there as they reach adulthood.

As for the 20gal, the story is like this: I ordered one a month ago for this set up, however my 7 year old nephew -I'm also his godfather- has a 5gal tank which is overstocked with small community fish. I did some numbers and a 20gal would suit his needs (Neons, Zebra Danios) and he could keep a happy Betta in his 5gal. My girls made it to the store a couple of weeks ago, I was going to leave them there -one of those caring LFS- but unfortunately a few juvenile males got mixed with them and disaster happened. 17 of the females survived and I brought them home to the 10gal. No 20s were available until today -secondary effects of living in the Third World- which should be in my hands in a week or so.

Anyway. I haven't been enjoying fishkeeping by not listening to you.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Red1313

I can't say anything about tank sizes, I've got two (2.5 really) temporary measures tanks set up right now. I trust you know what you're doing and aren't trying a sorority without having done research and preparation. However alot of people read this thread (google has eyes everywhere) who don't have the experiance that you do. And we don't want them to try it and have it end in heart-break b/c they hadn't been prepared and say it worked for him.
I can't wait to see the pics of your final set up!

pepetj

Here's a short vid I took yesterday. The corner fiber filter is off since I was taking pics. The CO2 ladder diffuser is not in use -the tank is at floor level at the moment.

[url=

Pepe
Santo Domingo

pepetj

Of course you can say what you honestly think about tank sizes and whatever other subject, that's the idea: sharing our knowledge in Fishlore.

It's not that I "know" what I am doing, I am learning as I do this, this is someone else's idea and I decided to give it a try. I have been reading on this subject for at least 3 months now -not that I have spent three full months reading only this, you get what I mean.

I am not that experienced. I joined Fishlore in April 2008. Begin my first tank -this same 10gal tank- in May. I had no idea of the nitrogen cycle. I thought I knew about fishkeeping (I kept a few tanks and a pond from age 7 to 23, I'm 43 now... at least until January 2009) but here I found out how much I didn't know. I am learning by the day. I guess that's what we all fishlorians do!

I don't mean to encourage anyone doing something they are not prepared for. I would love if someone learn from my experience though. This is more than just a hobby for me. Fishkeeping gives me significant peace of mind. I know I push the limits sometimes, when I do, it's because I honestly feel I'm up to the task.

I have had my heart broken in fishkeeping. I lost 11 female Bettas in my first attempt in October. A virulent strain of columnaris wiped them out in 24 hours. I tried really hard to save them but couldn't. I though about giving this idea up. I couldn't. I can't order fish to be shipped to me directly, I had to use a LFS to place this order for me.

If I succeed in this project, I would encourage others to try it. At this point I don't dare to do so. Think about it: a small sized Betta sorority (8-10) in a established 10gal. That would be a nice cost-effective project to pursue, maybe not for beginners but feasible for someone with a few months into this way of life.

This is a project that could run Amok at any moment. Things could go really bad. If done properly, it could work beautifully. That's what I am trying to achieve. So far it's working well.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Red1313

I guess I didn't come across clearly enough. I was just saying that you've done you're homework first and know what outcomes you can expect.
Apparently my meaning didn't come across very clearly. As for experience, I set up my first tank in augest.
I think you're at least a few months ahead of me.

Lucy

I'm not familair with Pla Kat Bettas juveniles but they look like stress lines to me.

I'm glad to hear your 20g is coming shortly, but it doesn't seem enough for 17 fish that will grow to be 2-2.5" in size.

pepetj

Red maybe it was my writing that sound awkward to you (English is my second language). I am encouraging you to give me advice. I am learning as I go. I have read your posts and I appreciate your contributions. You are a valuable member of Fishlore.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Allie

I don't go on that site much. I would not go by what they say, a lot of people on their don't know it all.
Most people I know who breed betta keep their females in sororities but in tank of 30g and more. Most prefer 55g depending on how many females.
I had 4 in a 10g tank all died of stress and tumors. Betta are very susceptible to stress, and stress with betta equals a lot of illness. A breeder (for 3yrs+) friend of mine had to upgrade her 30g sorority to a 55g b/c they were constantly getting ill b/c the aggressive females were picking on them. Nipping is not the only reason for illness the constant stress of watching their back is what kills them.
I would not recommend keeping 17 females ina 10g...pleas eup grade to at least a 30g. I highly doubt that any betta expert would tell you that 17 betta in a 10g would work.

pepetj

Update:
The 20gal made it to the store! I will be setting it up this weekend. I am tempted to set this tank at my office but that will likely be asking for trouble with my 4 years old daughter Camila.

I laughed out loud tonight when she engaged in the task of counting all 17 of the ladies (I can't count them myself, I took several pics to do that) and ends up with different sums each time... then she asked me "can you count them all?" and I honestly said "no way, they move too much!", then she replied after some thought "how do you know they are 17? oh I know! you counted them at the store!"

Pepe
Santo Domingo

CHoffman

Your daughter sounds like a cutie!!!!..I'm glad you got your 20gallon. That will be fun setting up with all the Betta toys and activites your going to put in there.

Lucy

I swear, your daughter sounds like such a cutie pie!

I re-read this thread and didn't pick up on it before. Aren't Pla Ka Bettas one of the few species of Bettas that people have sucess with in sorority tanks, (in a large tank, of course) unlike Betta Splendens.

pepetj

Pla Kat are unfortunately the wild species of Bettas more abused in the despicable betting-on-fights circles.

Telling male from female, as juveniles is a bit harder. The longer fins of males barely differ from the females, so the white dot (ovopositor) is the only sure way of telling once they reach over an inch; below that size it is not unusual for some males to display a similar white dot that later on disappears.

I am not sure about chances of failing sorority tanks. Keep in mind I am keeping siblings, which push the odds of this working out in my favor.

Attempting sororities with non-siblings is not advisable unless their age and genetics are quite similar but it requires a lot of effort in damage control as observations are made, through trial and error towards identifying where each one is in a dominance-subdominant-submissive continuum. Once that is set, the most submissive ones are placed first in the tank, then the subdominant ones, and finally, the dominant ones.

That's one of the reasons -availability- I waited so long to have them. My first attempt, which fatally failed due to virulent illness, was with older siblings, likely two years old from a local breeder.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Matt

Best Of Luck With All Your Girls

Are You Planning On Breeding Them?

-Matt