phlox

Thanks Kevin.
Oh, and I'm a her, not a his

Kevin

my bad , i do that all the time, its so hard to tell when you cant hear or see a person

Stan_(always on a budget)

i'm sorry for offending some of you. I want to give my fish the best life I can give them and right now i belive i am treating them very well. If one of my fish gets sick i will do everything i am able to do to save them. all apolagies but I am not able to buy expensive meds. I know many fish keepers who don't buy meds. I hope i can use this forum without everyone thinking i'm an idiot. If a fish gets sick this is the first place i'll come. I don't see a problem with how i'm treating my fish.

Stan_(always on a budget)

oh and phlox i realize fish will die sometimes. Sorry for what i said about your RIP

ricktavious

I think this thread has been filled with misunderstandings. If Stan is doing the things he says he is, that, unfortunately (for the fish of the world sake, not a knock on you, Stan), puts him in the top 10% of any fish owner I've run into.

By the way, there are some very cheap meds out there. Phlox also has quite a few bettas, so her bill per month runs a bit higher than alot of us.

ricktavious

Bettas are also very beloved pets to us much like a cat or dog is to many people. They are not just "ornaments" and feel both pain and happiness like us all. Please remember that, and if you get a betta and it does get ill, I very strongly encourage you to take proper action.

Stan_(always on a budget)

dude, like i said. I would totally do anything i could to save my fish. but if it would cost me more than like $10 i'm not so sure. i think most treatments require more labor than actual medicine so hopefully i could save it. i'm just not rich...at all.

Barbrella

Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm just wondering how you plan on "getting rid of" them so you can get something new?

I too have cherry barbs, and just got a betta recently. But I didn't get rid of my barbs.


That's very true, and very sad.

Stan_(always on a budget)

lol, I know what your thinking Barbrella. I would never flush my fish!!!!!!! getting rid of them means a) giving them to a friend or someone els with a tank b) giving them back to the store.

COBettaCouple

the basic guideline uses adult size so if you have a betta and 2 goldfish, that's not 3" of fish but at least 12.5" depending on the species of goldfish. Goldfish are heavy waste producers and usually 3 gallons per adult inch is a good starting point.

For filtration, 10gph per gallon of tank capacity is good.

As far as meds go and the value of fish - take away water and we're each worth a few bucks in chemicals. Fish, especially Bettas i think, are like any other pet - once they form a bond with an owner, their worth becomes intangible and not limited to selling price. That and wanting to ease or cure suffering makes the meds worth it.

Chief_waterchanger

Stan,

Everyone who has an interest in honestly taking care of a living being, such as a pet or a child has to learn at some point how to do so. Most of the time it is through trial and error. A fish is sick you try one thing, it doesn't work so you try another till ya find something that does. Sometimes that can get costly, however, I stick to my points I've made in the past that fish are not that expensive once you get the tank and equipment. The water conditioner if you are not on well-water and the food would probably be the main focus of your financial means for a tank at your current time in life. My fish are very happy and breed like crazy but again, I spend very little on them. And I'll be.... a monkey's uncle... if I cared what someone else had to say about water conditions that they aren't present to see them. If you kept a betta in a 5g tank and did weekly water changes, fed the betta properly, kept the water at the right temperature, made sure no chemicals got into the water that weren't suppose to, and conditioned the water that goes back into the tank (again, if you are not on well-water) then you should be just fine with the betta. It would take you being willing to put some money back perhaps so that ~if~ it did need medications that you could afford them, though. If you aren't ready to purchase medications that cost more than the fish did, I honestly would say it may not be the best time in your life to have a fish.

The fishhouse is not yet setup like a business and does not yet pay for itself.

With that being said, I wish you luck whichever way you decide to go.

Dino

[quote=phlox;268391]Yeah, but yours is a professional setup, a business. You buy in large quantities. Fish breeders don't buy plants, decorations, special food treats, supplements etc. like pet owners do. They couldn't make a living if they did. Yes, I spoil my fish but I spend a lot on my fish because I give them more than just the cheapest water conditioner and food. Any pet deserves the best you can give them, not the bare minimum. If you ask anyone here I'll bet they spend more than 10 cents a month on their fish, a LOT more. Fish are higher maintainence than other pets IF properly cared for.
As for getting sick, all you have to do is read this board to see how many of us are constantly nursing sick Bettas. Most of us are quite well informed about Betta care and take very good care of our fish.
[quote]


Yes, we buy in large quantities.
We spent over 200$ in food just a few months ago.

GOOD breeders do buy plants ( 25 species of plants here), decorations, ect.. if they want their fish to prosper.

I hate to ask, but are you implying I keep my fish with the bare minimum?
How do you know?
All the pictures I have put up are of large groups of tanks, with the interiors not showing.

And again, are you implying I do not give my fish proper care?
It cost about 100$ a month just to heat and cool the fishhouse.
5 people are doing weekly water changes.
Over 50 hours a week is spent taking care of the fish in the fishhouse at minimum.

I have had people drive 11 hours to buy fish from me. I have had dozens of people buy fish from me off this board. No complants yet.
Surely if the fishhouse was a bottom of the line, just keep them alive business, this would not happen.

90% of what we sell is produced in the fishhouse.
If the fish were kept at a minimum, they would not be breeding.

Sorry to sound so defensive, but my fish are my passion, as I think yours are, and I do not take lightly folks implying I do not take care of my fish.

phlox

Calm down! I was not knocking you at all! My beef is with Stan not with you. I know you take good care of your fish. All I am saying is, there is no way breeders spend as much time money and effort carefully decorating their tanks as the pet owner does. With hundreds of tanks it would be impossible and impractical! I am quite sure you provide them with everything they need to be healthy and that you medicate them when they are sick. You obviously care about your fish, unlike Stan who treats them like a mere toy or decoration. I was only saying you can't really compare the amount spent on fish between breeders and regular owners. I am focusing all my time and extra cash on only 9 fish, you have over a thousand. I'm quite sure if I had that many I would not be buying all the extras I buy as I could not afford it.
I do spoil my fish and while they may not NEED all the extras, I want to do everything possible to keep them healthy and happy, even if it means going overboard. I got the impression I was being put down for that like maybe I was crazy or something but maybe I am being defensive too. Trust me when I say, NOTHING bad was implied towards you.
I do however feel you may be condoning Stan's attitude and giving him the false impression that it will only cost him 10 cents a month to care for his fish. Even the bare minimum of supplies will be more than that for someone not buying in bulk. At this point he has no heater in the tank even though cherry barbs are tropical fish, and I doubt he's be willing to spend the $30 or so on a proper heater. He has made no mention of using water conditioners, having any water testing kits or even knowing anything about cycling a tank. I doubt he'd be willing to buy new food that is proper for a Betta and would probably try to feed the same flakes as the barbs. Most Bettas will not eat flakes.
This kid needs to grow up and realize living creatures have far more value than what you paid for them before attempting to own pets.

Allie

Man you are just a little sensitive aren't you?

phlox

When it comes to animals yes I am and proud of it.

Isabella

Folks, the most important thing here is that we ALL DO love our fish very much and care for them as best as we can. All of us: I, Dino, Phlox, and the serious rest of Fish Lore members

Phlox, yes, it's possible that businesses and breeders may spend less money on their fish and tanks due to financial constraints (all businesses need to account for expenses in a very cost-efficient way to make a profit), BUT THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO MEAN that the fish are taken care of in a worse manner. So what if a breeder buys a cheaper water conditioner? It's just the brand name that's cheaper. The conditioner still does its job. And obviously a breeder or business owner with hundreds of fish and tanks won't have as much time for every single tank as he/she would have if he/she had only one or a few tanks. He/she does not have a hundered hands, lol.

While I do know for a fact that most fish businesses keep fish in horrible conditions (i.e. my local LFS is an excellent example of this) - and this is why I guess you say what you say - but I also do know for a fact that Dino is not one of these hearless profit-only oriented people. He really does care about his fish, and the hobby really is his passion. I can see that in all of his threads and in the fish house project. I can attest to the fact that others have successfully bought healthy fish from him. Yes, there are many heartless fish breeders and fish businesses out there, NO DOUBT about that (in fact, most of them are this way), but that doesn't mean that there are absolutely no exceptions such as Dino.

Well, that's my 2 cents

COBettaCouple

true, we love our fish as true pets and would gladly order from Dino knowing we'd get fish that had been well-cared for. I think we may have different approaches to things, but we care for our fish and give them the respect and care that living creatures should have.

phlox

Since everyone obviously missed my reply above, I was not saying ANYTHING bad about Dino or his fish house. You can all stop flaming me and sending angry emails too. After today I'm logging off and not coming back. It seems nobody understands anything I say or cares so I refuse to keep explaining or defending myself.

Isabella

Phlox, I didn't mean to offend you! Sorry if you took it this way. I was really trying to understand BOTH YOU AND DINO No one here really intended to upset you. Sorry once again if you felt this way Likewise, no one wants you gone from Fish Lore. All members are liked and respected here. If you will be gone, that will be of your own free will because certainly no one here wants you gone. I just want you to know that

And I do understand what you're saying. I can see you love animals very much and would do anything for them. I am exactly the same way. There is obviously nothing wrong with loving animals

And once again, I already said that I do agree with you that MOST fish businesses keep the poor fish in horrible conditions. Looks like you didn't read my reply either.

TiffanyLuv

Don't get so offended, when I came here I kinda got some flack on my thoughts,,but everyone has their opinion. You can take or leave it, but don't let it get to you so badly that you leave. Think of the friends you've made, the info you obtained and the sincerety all these folks have. Some are just a little more passionate than others. State your case and so will they. "Agree to DisAgree" things you say will have pros and cons.

Isabella

Exactly, not everyone will always have the same opinion. The most important thing is to RESPECT people, EVEN THOUGH they have different opinions from our own. Just because someone has a different opinion from mine, it doesn't mean I have to disrespect that person. There are a lot of people that I don't agree with, but I still respect them.

COBettaCouple

Phlox,
I hope that you'll think about it and not give up the community we have at FishLore. Yea, we'll have lots of different opinions but that's how communities are.

Stan_(always on a budget)

sheesh phlox! lighten up! I HAVE A HEATER! I USE WATER CONDITIONER (AquaSafe, cuz i know you will ask) AND I EVEN HAVE AN ALMOST FULL CONTAINER OF BETTA FOOD MY OLDER BRO GAVE ME WITH THE TANK! so why are you saying all this stuff? how in the world do you know what i have in my tank? I think you need to face the fact that I treat my fish as well as most of you and stop beakin at me.

thank you for letting me vent.

Happy thanksgiving

armadillo

Stan, I found that comment quite under the belt. Phlox loves her pets, so you must be trying to hit a raw nerve by mentioning the ones that have passed away. That was not playing it by the rules, buddy. Am glad you also think that one went too far.

I respect Phlox' opinion enormously, especially when it comes come curing a sick fish. She is soooo knowledgeable about medications you wouldn't believe.

But Phlox, I would say it does cost way more than people think, but I think you could get away with spending about 20 dollars a month on 1 betta if it's not sick, after the start-up costs of a proper set-up, a good pharmacy and proper food are all already at home. Bettas tend to get sick in my experience, so you'd have to budget for that.

I also think that there are older people who can't care for a pet, and younger people who can.

But what's important, is to realise that a fish can mean a lot of work, and a lot of money when they're sick. So if you enter into this not ready to try your best in case the fish does get sick, I'd say please get a more robust fish.

Chief_waterchanger

I would look at pet keeping like this:

If I were a child again and fully at the mercy of my parents (as fish are to their keepers) and I got sick, would I want them to get me medication or would I want them to go partying with their friends?

They can be called 'just fish' all day long, but that doesn't mean they do not have emotions, feelings, and know when they are hurt. I am not saying that you, Stan, could not make a great fishkeeper. I am agreeing with a lot of the other people that if you have a desire to keep a pet you should also realize it is not all a field of daisies. With the responsibility comes the financial responsibility also. (If we didn't have 100+ fishtanks we could get up and go partying for a weekend or go on long trips without worrying, but we have that many tanks and can not do that. We have to plan vacations and other financial expenditures around the fish's needs, as well as our dogs. it just happens that way in life.)

I understand that you probably know all of that, so I will leave you with this:

You're gonna do what you want no matter what a bunch of people behind a computer screen say, so why not do it the proper way?

Barbrella

I just got my first betta two weeks ago.

Cost of fish: 4.99$
Cost of all his stuff: 150$+ and counting.

Yes, I could have put him in a small unheated bowl and figured that if he died I"d flush him and just get another.

But I feel that any time I bring any creature into my home, I am obligated to give the very best care I'm capable of.

Yes, buying things like medications and unattractive equipment is not fun at all, but it's part of the obligation.

armadillo

Barbrella, you've put your finger on it. Fish are deceptively cheap to buy, but the one-off cost of set-up, good quality food and a decent first-aid pharmacy, can quickly go up in the first few months.

After a while, you learn from your mistakes and get down to a leaner set-up, you also learn what equipment brands will keep going, and which will keep you returning to the petstore for replacements all the time. All of this takes time, and before you can have any economy of scales or of experience, you do need a some budget for it.

The more experienced you are, the cheaper it can be. That's the funny thing about it. If you look at fish keepers like Tim or Dino, their relative cost per fish is way smaller than mine. But I'd say that having only one betta would cost way more than his purchase price quite frequently.

chickadee

Well, one of the problems is that MOST bettas do not start out their lives being as well taken care of as Dino and Chief take care of the fish there. And the time they spend at the petstores in those little plastic torture chambers does not help their systems either.

Most fish you buy to go into a community tank are kept in filtered and cycled tanks from birth, but most betta males are not. They are at the mercy of the people who are caring for them as to whether or not they are half ammonia poisoned before you buy them. Every time they are mistreated and neglected and left in the sewers they are frequently left to live in, their immune systems suffer and by the time they go home with a prospective parent they can be harboring a very serious illness that just hasn't come to the surface yet. It may take months for it to do it or it may happen right away. Owners blame themselves even though they have done their level best to provide everything that the fish could possibly need and yet it dies. Bettas are high maintenance fish no matter what you hear from some salesperson at the petstore. If you want a healthy betta and a happy one, it is up to you to treat it in the manner that it deserves and provide it the home that it needs. The things we provide for our bettas are not given to them to spoil them (other than perhaps some of the decorations). The tanks and filters and heaters and airstones and food and medications are necessities for these lovely fish. You would not go out and spend money on a thoroughbred horse, or dog or cat or other pet and then say, "well now I have you but you are on your own".

Bettas are, in my opinion, the most dependent of fish. The depend on us for food and clean homes and most of all, for attention and companionship because they do not know how to relate to other fish but they identify with us most closely. A betta will be your friend, your companion, and your little buddy. It all depends on how much of yourself you are willing to invest in him.
They are not a pretty little toy or something to use to decorate your table. They NEED you.

Now I am crawling off my soapbox and I want it totally understood that I am not directing this at anyone or any post in particular. Those people around here who know me know that I give these little "booklets" every now and again and they are simply meant for information.

Rose

Barbrella

Bettas everywhere thank you!

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COBettaCouple

Barbrella & Rose - you hit it dead on there! whether it be a fish, dog, guinea pig or whatever -- i think we have a moral responsibility to care for that animal to our best ability. it's not in any contract , but it's one of those things that we need more of - respect for life.

when we look at a fish, especially a betta, i think "do we have the $150 to buy him/her?" .. it's worth it.. it's why we have pets as a society instead of all utility animals and i think all pets are equal and valued.