armadillo

Hi everyone.

I made a huuuge beginner's mistake. I was starting to cycle a 4G quarantaine tank for only 2 days when we noticed 9 newborn molly fry in the main (cycled) tank. We immediately moved them to the (uncycled) quarantaine tank and they've been there for 1 week now. There are no disstress symptoms yet, they all seem fine. Eating and exploring.

Of course as time goes by, I am very worried about them surviving the ammonia cycle. They're hardly what you would call hardy fish. In our defence, we moved them to save them from immediate harm (their hungry parents and an already overstocked tank).

I moved one of the plants and a rock from my main tank to the quarantaine tank (hoping to add some bacteria at least to the quarantaine tank).

I made the mistake of hoovering the gravel, thus delaying the settling of the bacterial bed. Won't do that again until it's cycled.

Went to the 'L'FS today to find ammonia/nitrite neutralisers but I only found Sera Toxivec and Tetra SafeStart (am I allowed to use brand names here?).

Did some research on these products and found that:

- Bio Start seems great, but we don't have that in Europe. I could get a hold of it if I get good recommentions.

- Toxivec is only supposed to be used in an empty (fishless) tank, which should be left for 2 days before adding fish. So not an option.

- I read some very ing reviews in several different forums about SafeStart: it is supposed to only precipitate the cycle (rather than detoxifying the nitrite/ammonia to safe levels as it also claims it does).

P.S. I am also wary of adding chemicals to the water in the first place.

So the product situation is that I bought both Sera Toxivec and Tetra SafeStart, but haven't added any to the water yet.

These are my readings in my quarantaine tank today before a 50% water change today:

Ammonia = 1 (gm/L). I thought I read 1.5 yesterday, but that was the first time I tested, so I could have used the kit completely wrong.
Nitrite = 1
nitrate = 25

temperature is a stable 26
stock = 10 molly fry, a week old
pH fluctuates betwen 7.4 and 7.5
KH = 5 (don't even ask me what it means)
GH = 15 (again, no idea what GH means)
Tank age = filled/planted since 7 days ago

Question 1 is: do you think my fry has the slightest chance of surviving if I do 50% water change every day?

Question 2 is: how do I know where I am in the cycle? There is definitely still ammonia, but there is also nitrite and nitrate detected. Does that mean that I am still in the first 'wave'? Is the 2nd 'wave' when there is no ammonia, but some nitrate?

Question 3: Would you add either of the products I've quoted, or could you recommend another one?

Heeeelp, I really don't want any of my baby mollies to die.

Luniyn

If you can return both of those products, then do it because those aren't the one's you want (well the Sera Toxivec 'might' but I've never used it and I'm not even sure it's possible to do what it claims (i.e. "remove" ammonia and nitrite from your water) besides ammonium is NH4+ which isn't toxic anyway (it's the NH3 or "Free" ammonia that you want to remove)). See if you can find Prime where you are. That will detoxify the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates and help keep those fry healthier (though frequent small water changes (25% every day) will help along with the use of a detoxifier). As to the cycle, generally if you are getting nitrites then you are on phase 2 of your cycle, but just the beginning part of it. You will soon have a 0 ammonia reading and probably get a spike in nitrite, so keep up the water changes daily.

armadillo

Thank you so much for your quick response. The tank has only been cycling for 2 weeks. This with only 2 small plants (in relation to tank size), without any chemical help and without fish for the first week. Actually, I didn't think I was in that much of a hurry, so I pretty much did nothing to help it along. I only sometimes added a little bit of food. Could I really already be on phase 2? That would be good news as they would have survived the first ammonia spike.

armadillo

Oh, and your link indirectly LED to Netherlands dealers, so I may actually be able to get a hold of Prime. I contacted one of the dealers just now. Fingers crossed they sell it.

atmmachine816

I agree with Luniyn completely. GH and KH help in figuring out the co2 content in your tank, they aren't necessary unless you are adding co2 so you don't need to use those tests now. Since the cycle is under way already it's probably too late since soon it will be over but in the future to get a tank cycled quickly and cheaply you can take some filter media from your current filter and add it too your new filter and it will cycle faster. You can probably add some now but I don't know how much it will help.

HOpe they survive.

btw: you can post product names, it's links to other forums that are considered tacky and will be removed.

armadillo

Thanks a lot for the info on KH/CO2, ATM.

I also really really really hope they survive.

Glad there's a building consensus on my nitrate cycle.

COBettaCouple

i think it's fine to use the names. looking at those products information, i don't think i'd use either.. did you say you found a tetra product for ammonia?

kH & gH are the hardness levels. kH is Carbonate hardness and gH is General hardness.

If you can get the Prime that is the #1 thing I'd recommend for your tank.

armadillo

Hi BettaCouple

No, I didn't use the Tetra product for ammonia after doing some research. It just made me hesitate. I preferred playing it safe and keeping to a 50% water change.

I read up on Prime now and it sounds very impressive. Dealing with slime coating/metals/chlorine + ammonia/nitrite without interference sounds good to me.

I still need to do my homework on carbonate hardness and general hardness as it's chinese to me at this stage.

Dare I hope for my fry? Dare I hope? Argh, the anxiety of this hobby. Honestly. Why do we put ourselves through this?

COBettaCouple

yea, the tetra product is better than those other 2, but i only use Prime or Amquel+ to do ammonia control. I hope you'll be able to get some prime. it's great stuff.

you'll have many, many fry i think.. mollys can put out a LOT of fry.

armadillo

Ooooo. Am confused. The tetra product is good you say? Because I have read a couple of concerning reviews about it. Prime, however, seems to be more universally praised.

Am sure we'll be able to get more fry given the birth of this batch, but am a real softy, and I'd like to give them as good a chance as possible to not be killed by my beginner's ignorance.

armadillo

Unfortunately, my main tank and my quarantaine tank have filter foam pads of incompatible formats, so I was not able to recycle on that one.

atmmachine816

You can cut a piece off if your able.

armadillo

Yeah, I thought of doing that too, but they are exact opposites in compatibility: I'd need to cut it lengthways and widthways. To cut a long story short, I think it's a great idea, but didn't do it as I thought I'd screw it up when putting it in the quarantaine tank filter due to the really ill fit that my poor cutting skills would surely deliver! : )

Luniyn

I think FLBettaCouple is thinking of AquaSafe from Tetra, which is a good product if you aren't trying to detoxify ammonia or nitrite and just get rid of chlorine in your tap water. The Tetra product you mentioned is more like the product "Cycle" which is pretty useless (at least that's the general consensus after numerous non-helpful results found by members on this forum). It does say that it is using the right type of "good bacteria", however, being that it comes in a bottle it will most likely be left out on a shelf instead of in a refrigerator like this bacteria needs to be kept in order to stay alive when not in a tank actively eating up your ammonia and nitrite. So that's why I feel that it is probably not worth while in this case. Definitely go for the Prime (it's all I use in my tanks) or Amquel+ if you can find that, as it will work as well (Prime does a few more things and is cheaper, but Amquel+ will detoxify your ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate just fine if you can't find Prime).

armadillo

Hi Lunyin.

The only good reviews I'd read about StartSafe were from Tetra themselves. Private fish forums seem mixed to disappointed to downright outraged by it.

About bacteria and temperature: Through my musings, I came across this post (don't ask me the link, I didn't save it) that said that not all bacteria needed to be kept cool, they used anthrax as an example. Anyway, am digressing.

Yes, I think he probably means AquaSafe. That's what I use in my cycled tank and indeed, I trust it too. Am really glad that it seems SeaChem Prime is also sold by some dealers here in The Netherlands.

Luniyn

Yep that is certainly true, and in fact the bacteria that is used in Cycle (and they do use a bacteria) can go dormant and live just fine without eating for quite some time. The problem is that it's not the right type of bacteria and even when added to our tanks, it doesn't take hold and help us in any way. The right type of bacteria can only be dormant at low temperatures, and if it hits room temperature and doesn't have any ammonia or nitrite to eat then it very quickly starts to die off. That's why Bio-Spira (which is the right type of bacteria) MUST be kept cold at all times before you use it, or it won't help in your tank because you will just be adding dead bacteria.

That's good news that you can get some Prime. I love the stuff and won't use anything else in my tanks. Good Luck!

armadillo

Well actually I can't get Prime. I called the dealer today as they hadn't replied to my e-mail and they said they didn't have it and would have to order it. I ordered it myself online to the only distributor I could find, and it looked dodgy, so unsure whether I'll actually get anything and if so, when. I called about 5 fish stores today and all were lecturing me about the fact that I shouldn't put too much in the water, all the while trying to sell me their own, completely ill-indicated, products - e.g. a hardcore nitrate treatment which 1/ removes your nitrates. not exactly what you need when you want to cycle and 2/ must be put in an fishless tank.

Argh! Those fish stores.