Tigerlily

I hope someone can help me figure this out. Apparently I've done just about everything wrong that is possible to do wrong with this tank.

I have a 10 gallon tank, heater, UGF (yes, I'd like to take it out but that's a whole different set of questions), a couple grass type plants, a banana plant (the "bananas" are turning black but it keeps growing new leaves) and a pineapple plant (which I just removed from the tank after finding out here and confirming on PlantGeek.net that it's not an aquatic plant), a crown tail betta and two zebra danios.

The tank is just over a month old. A couple months ago I impulsively purchased a 1.25 gal tank and then bought the betta (his name is Maynard). It wasn't long before I decided he needed more heat and better conditions overall than he was getting in that tank so I purchased the 10 gallon set up.

The pet store (local not a chain) included conditioning chemicals which were supposed to allow me to add fish within a few hours. So, after setting up the tank I added 4 zebra danios and an albino pleco. Within a week the pleco and two danios had died. I purchased strip tests... low pH but everything else was within "normal". But things still didn't seem right. So much for instant cycling.

Next I purchased a Tetra Test Laborett. The ammonia was very, very high... fortunately the ph remained low. I've been doing regular water changes (2 gallons daily). The ph and ammonia have adjusted to normal. A couple days ago I noticed the tank getting milky looking. After reading here I was slightly reassured that the tank was nearing the end of its cycle. The bad news is, there seems to be a slight scum and some foamy bubbles on the surface of the water. Surely this isn't normal

Current water readings in the tank:
ph 6.0
NO2 <0.3 mg/l
NH3 & NH4 0 mg/l
GH 9
KH 3

I use tap water which tests at:
ph 7.5
NO2 <0.3 mg/l
NH3 & NH4 between .25 & 1.5
GH 6
KH 4

The temp is 76-78 F
Maynard is eating 2 betta pellets (he's so cute, he eats them off my finger) a day.
The danios get a bit of flake food (Maynard eats that too so I backed off of his 4 pellets a day).
They have a fast day once a week and daphnia once a week.

Hope I gave you all the information requested.
Thanks for any insight you all might provide.

jdhef

Welcome to FishLore!

I see that your ph at 6.0 is at the low end of the acceptable range. I'm a bit surprized that it is so much lower than your tap water though. Do you have any driftwood in the tank that could be lowering the ph?

Having a Betta in a tank with danio's can be trouble for the Betta. The Danio's will probably find his fins irrestistable and start nipping them at some point. It is good that you are feeding the daphnia one a week, since it sounds like your Betta is over-eating, and Bettas are prone to constipation.

The only "cycling" product that actually works is Tetra SafeStart. So if that isn't what you used, its not surprizing it didn't work.

As you seem to know, with the ph being around 6.0 you have ammonium in your tank instaed of ammonia. While this is better for the fish, a low ph usually leads to a longer cycle.

Meenu

welcome to FL!

What water conditioner do you use? Prime is highly recommended by the users of this forum - I bought some, and it really does help.

I am also confused about your pH being so different from the tap. I thought of the driftwood thing, too, and also was wondering what you add to the water.


Just out of curiosity, do you use frozen or freeze-dried daphnia?

Tigerlily

Thanks for the welcome and responses!

No, no driftwood. I forgot to mention I added a small mesh bag of crushed coral to help raise the ph. It's come up a bit... it was at 5 two weeks ago. I'm not sure if the increase is from the coral or from the daily 25% water changes or both. The pet store owner was really surprised the ph was so much lower than my tap water also. I have been using Ammolock when I change the water.

I'll look for the Tetra SafeStart. That's not what was included with the tank. Would it make sense to add it now, if I can find it, or would it mess things up even further? I'm still really concerned about the bubbles and scum on the surface of the water... any ideas what that's about?

Interesting about the danios. I was told they'd be okay with him. He was in a tank with other fish at the pet store. He's been really good with the danios and so far they have left him alone. I was more worried about getting fish he wouldn't attack... <sigh>

I found out bettas can be little piggies. He did bloat slightly once but recovered right away after eating daphnia (frozen). Now I watch him closely but of course he acts as though he's starving... fits right in with my dogs and cats... no picky eaters in this house!

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore!!!
we have all been where you at some point bad advice is something many get daily from LFS....the scum is normal if there is no surface water agitation..whether it be from the outtake of your filter, or adding an extra bubble rock/wand, will help it get mixed up more....the differences in your tap and tank can be a combo of using test strips (which im sure you h ave found arent giving you true readings) and the cycle process of the tank..which fluctuates the ph constantly... at this point i would do the daily water changes with the prime(that will detox the ammonia/nitrites for 24 hours to keep the fish safe) as recommended unless you can find the tetra safestart...if you can find tss, do one large water change with the prime and 24 hours later add the safestart and leave the tank for 7-10 days... the toughest thing with bettas in community tanks is they can turn at any moment and not play nice..as well as they will eat all the food you feed the other fish which can cause major bloat (as you found out) good luck!

Tigerlily

Thanks. I quit using the test strips quickly. I'm a wee bit too obsessive compulsive/mad scientist to trust them. I want chemicals! LOL I'll look for both Prime and Safe Start... hope I don't have to go to the big box pet store but will if I have to.

The tank looks a little clearer this morning. I had the tube from the UGF turned towards the back wall of the tank to cut down on some of the turbulence that gives Maynard such a bad time. Sounds as though that could be a factor in the "scum".

Shawnie

ya maynard may not care for it as they are more of a weak swimmer...maybe you can find him a nice 2.5g kit while you are there also MTS(multiple tank syndrome ) is a sickness we highly encourage! good luck with things! and remember, the pet stores that DONT carry safestart, will definitely try to sell you something else and be insistent its better or t he same....so beware

Meenu

Heck, I had a LFS that DID carry TSS tell me that Cycle is a better product, and I should use it instead. yeesh.

Tigerlily

Thanks for all the suggestions. I bought a nitrate test kit and some Prime but NO place in two counties (a total of 4 stores which carry aquarium supplies) has Tetra SafeStart. The tank is far less cloudy than it was yesterday and also better than this morning when I left for work.

Tonight's water readings are:
Ammonia 0mg/l
NO2 <0.3mg/l
NO3 0ppm
ph 5.0 (it dropped again!)

I just got home so haven't done a water change with Prime yet? Think I should? Or should I just let it ride and see what happens?

Meenu

Could your pH test be expired or faulty or something?

Tigerlily

I don't think so... yesterday it read 7.5 for my tap water. Weird huh? The owner of the fish store wants to come out to look at the tank. She's pretty puzzled too. But she's in the middle of moving her store to a new location so that won't happen any time soon.

My tap water comes off the top of a 10,000 foot mesa. During spring runoff the water company does mess with the mix but this time of year things are stable. (Yes, I called and asked.)

It's a mystery to me.

dragonshark

hello the danios need to be in a school of 5 or more and more females then males will cut down on the nipping here is a link that will help you pick out fish www.fishlore.com/freshwaterfish.htm

aquarist48

Hello TigerLily. Here is a link you may find helpful concerning pH:
Properly Maintaining the pH in a Freshwater Aquarium - Rate My Fish Tank
Best of luck.
Ken
I've moved your post to the "aquarium water" section of the forum.
Thanks!
Ken

Tigerlily

Thanks for moving the thread, Ken. I'll be more careful from now on. The ph info was very interesting. One more thing I've been doing wrong... I've been testing my tap water right away not as described in the link. Researching proper aeration is next on my list.

Dragonshark, thanks for the link and your input. I was told by the fish shop the danios and my betta would be fine. I started out with four (all they had) and assurances that the conditioning chemicals would allow immediate addition of the fish. Well, that didn't work out the way it was supposed to! Anyway, until the tank is settled down I'm not adding anymore fish.

So far the danios and betta have been fine together but I'm considering other solutions. Maynard, the betta, really seems to enjoy interaction and always swims to the part of the tank that is closest to me... as with my dogs and it's getting crowded around here! I've been considering whether a smaller tank on my computer desk would fit the bill. On the other hand, three large dogs milling about under my desk with a fish tank on top may be a recipe for disaster or at best possibly too much stress for Maynard.

Regardless, I've got a lot of learning to do before I make anymore impulsive decisions.

Tigerlily

Wow... what a trip this is. I bought a new test kit (API), have been changing 2 gallons (10 gallon tank) daily and using Prime. Unfortunately, the two danios died a couple days ago... I had done the water change and a couple hours later both were floating. Maynard seems to be doing fine.

Water readings (before the water change)
ammonia 4ppm
ph 6
nitrite 0ppm
nitrate 0ppm

I'm going to the closest city this weekend to look for Tetra SafeStart.

Is there anything else I should be doing?

omnitheforsaken

You may need to order Tetra Safestart (TSS) online. No store in the DMV (DC, Maryland, Virginia) area sells it at all, so I always order it from Dr. FosterSmith or something like that and I keep a spare bottle for back-up... you never know. Your ammonia is still high as I'm sure you're aware and can be toxic to your fish. You should keep doing the water changes with prime daily until you get it down some, and probably a higher percentage such as 4 gallons. You should know that the toxins will build up at a higher rate in such a small tank so I would definitely seek out the TSS as soon as possible. I don't know the preferred pH for Betta's and Danios but that sounds pretty low. You may want to consider a buffer to raise it some (natural or chemical, they sell both).

Lucy

I'm really sorry about your fish

I agree with omnitheforsaken about the water changes.
However, I respectfully disagree about the Ph. I don't think I'd mess with it.
It'll be hard to keep that stable. IMO a stable pH would be better than having it fluctuate.
Many fish can adapt to different pH's.

The good news is with a pH of 6, you have ammonium, not ammonia which is less harmful than ammonia.

Since there's such a difference in pH from tap to tank, you may want to do two smaller water changes daily so you don't shock your fish.

Good luck.

Tigerlily

Thanks for the input Lucy and omnitheforsake. I do realize it's ammonium and am thankful for that. I will start twice daily water changes, that sounds safer for Maynard. The small bag of crushed coral is still in the tank (Maynard likes to sleep against it) it's been in there for about three weeks. It sure doesn't seem to be doing a darn thing for the ph though.

jdhef

Yeah Lucy, I told her it was ammonium back in post #2...so there!

Tigerlily

Ten stores, 3 counties and a 100 mile round trip later... I found a store that carries TSS. They use it when they set up new tanks and recommend it highly. I had purchased pet stuff from this store 20+ years ago when I lived in that city. I thought they'd closed when I saw their store front had become a dollar store. Turns out they moved and are continuing their 40 year-old business from a new location. They specialize in aquariums and it was amazing to see the tank room. The owner breeds angel fish and has a huge tank with hundreds of teeny tiny babies. When she put her hand near the glass they all swarmed towards it like metal filings to a magnet. Delightful! She had many baby bettas, bred locally. The marine fish were incredible too. And ohhhh, all the different tanks and set ups for sale. I'm in deep trouble now. LOL

Anyway... 6 hours ago I added TSS to Maynard's tank.
Current water conditions:
Ph 6.6
Ammonia a terrifyingly high 8.0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0

Is it possible the addition of TSS could be causing the ammonia to convert directly to Nitrate?

I added Prime again this evening... the ammonia with a 6.6 ph is so scary to me.

Oh yeah, I followed the suggestion on the site Ken sent about testing ph of tap water after 24 hours (and again at 48) of oxygenation with an air stone. My tap water was 7.8 24 hours ago (different from a few days ago) and is still at 7.8.

Thanks to the good advice I got here... seconded today by the lady at the fish store... I'm feeling optimistic and not fearful of turning around any second and seeing my cute boy in distress or dead. Thank you all!

Meenu

Once you add the TSS, do nothing for 10 days except feed the fish. No testing the water - the results come back crazy. I did exactly what you did, panicked, added Prime. But TSS does not work with Prime, and I messed up the TSS by adding it. I had to start over.

I hope the prime didn't mess you up like it did me.

edit: I would strongly suggest you not add it again. TSS is made so that your fish will be safe after you add it, for 7-10 days.

jdhef

TSS should have the bacteria that converts nitrite into nitrate as well as the bacteria that converts ammonia into nitrites. So it wouldn't be surprising to find a nitrate reading. But like mommybaby said, don't test your water or add anything to your tank other than fish food for the fish. Hopefully the Prime doen't interfere with the SafeStart doing it's job.

Tigerlily

Okay, the Prime is put away and I won't test until next weekend.

Lucy

Good luck Tigerlily!