Carissa504

Hello,

I've been a fan of this forum for a while now and used it to answer a lot of my questions. But I've finally broken down and registered because I'm really frustrated with the hard water problem we have.

Here's the history on this...

My daughter started this whole fish thing last summer. She wanted Angel fish. She saved for the first time in her 7-year life, got herself a 10-gal starter tank and everything else she needed. We waited about a week for the tank to cycle, then got two angel fish and a rainbow shark. The angels promptly died.

The pet store told us to start with something more... hardy. We got a neon blue gourami and a black skirt tetra. The tetra was trying hard to be the gourami's buddy but he wasn't having it.. so we got a 2nd tetra.

Right after Christmas, the shark mysteriously died but everyone else is A-OK. We never figured out what happened to the shark. After about 6 weeks, we tried another shark and he lived about a week and died. Gave up on the sharks.

Back in early March, a friend gave me a 29-gal tank and I successfully moved everything over. The new tank stays much cleaner than the 10 gal. The small tank had a bad algae problem, so my dad convinced my daughter to get a plecostomous (i can't spell that to save my life). Then the pet store guy convinced her to get an otocinclas catfish (another word i can't spell).

Everyone has been doing grand, so while my daughter was with her dad for Easter, i got another angelfish to surprise her with when she came back. She never saw it. 'Cuz it died.

I'm told by two different pet stores that our water is too hard and the pH is too high. Testing it right now, the strip shows it in the 7.8 range. With the last angelfish, the pet store also told me that the ammonia was too high... i had been out of ammonia testing strips, but i went and bought some more and tested the water as soon as i got home and it reads as "ideal". Yahoo... something's right.

Soo... about 3 weeks ago, i bought a piece of driftwood. Went to a new petstore and they sold me one out of one of their tanks. But there's been no changes! Argh! So frustrating!

Tonight i dragged the kid out to the store and bought some peat, but i hadn't finished researching (long story, involves the kid driving me crazy) and after i put the peat in the bucket and came back to finish reading all the articles i had pulled up.... okay, so Miracle Grow peat isn't what i want.

SO.. now that i have all our history laid out here... The goal is to put 2-3 angels in the tank. I don't want to kill any more fish. I may not love these lil fishies, but i don't want to be a fish-killer either!!! I'm not up for investing in a RO setup... so does anyone have any ideas?

Tomorrow I'm going to try to boil water.. that's been thrown around on a couple of places as a possible solution. While the water is cooling, i'm running to Lowes to get some organic peat Sorry that I've typed up a novel here.. But i would like to get the best possible feedback that I can!

Lucy

Hi Carissa504 Welcome to Fish Lore

I'm not real sure your problem is your hard water. Many fish can adapt to different ph's.
Sounds like you got off on the wrong foot.
I'm going to provide a link, on that page are some links for you to do some research to get this new tank started.
May I also recommend you get yourself a good liquid test kit?
I use the API master kit, it's very reliable, much more accurate than the strips.

Here's the link:
Beginners

One the right hand side of this page are some fish profiles.
Hopefully, they'll give you some insight about what went wrong.

Please ask any other questions that come up.

Carissa504

Even with the tank being started back in August, is it still considered a "new" tank?? When I moved everything from the 10-gal tank to the 29-gal, i filled the new one up about half-way with new water then let it sit for 2-3 days. Then i put the water in the existing tank in, kept the same filter, etc.

**I'm going to add an edit here, because i should add that every few weeks my daughter convinces me to take a sample of our tank water to the pet store to see if we can get the angels. They test it and always come back with our pH is too high or the hard water, etc and discourage us from buying the angels. And they hassled me over refunding me for the last one, but i'll be honest, the fish was very lethargic from the minute i finally let him out of his baggie into the tank. He never ate, etc. I've had two stores check our water and while they didn't say they WOULDN'T sell me an angel fish, they try to dissuade me.

Butterfly

First welcome to fishLore! we're glad you finally registered
Unless you have gravel, decor, or a filter that has been in or running in a mature tank for several weeks a tank won't cycle in a week. Usual cycling time is about 6-8 weeks.
When fish are added to an uncycled tank their wastes cause an ammonia build up(there's not enough beneficial bacteria yet to convert the ammonia to a less toxic substance yet). This ammonia build up is lethal to your fish.
This is how the cycle is done
http://www.fishlore.com/Articles/TheNitrogenCycle.htm
It's much kinder to cycle fishless here's a link
Ammonia instructions for a fishless cycle
Here are some interesting articles to read
Fishlore Articles for Beginners
Now there is nothing wrong with your water (I have bred angels in 7.2-7.8 pH) I think you just got in a hurry and off on the wrong foot. So lets start with testing your water and see if we can keep what you have alive
Do you have a testing kit? Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate tests are very important. We recommend the Aquarium Pharmaceutical freshwater master test kit. Petsmart has them or you can order it online.
It's very important to know the ammonia reading because this is what will spike first.
If you don't have a testing kit I suggest a daily 25% water change to keep the ammonia at a tolerable level.
I would not advise buying anymore fish until thetank is shown cycled by testing.
There is no need to boil your water there isn't anything wrong with it
A simple dechlorinator to get rid of the chlorine and chloramines in the water is all the chemicals you need right now. A large number of our members use prime as a dechlor but there are many good ones out there.
Hope this has helped. Hang in there
carol

agabr123

hi and welcome!

angels can be pretty sensitive fish and my best guess for why they died is a combination of reasons.

1. acclimation - i'm not sure how you acclimated the angels to the tank, but i'm sure the pet store didnt tell you to use a drip acclimation, which IMO is the best for angels. basically it involves adding small amounts of water from your tank into the bag that the angels are in over the course of at least an hour so they can adjust to the parameters of your tank

here's a link that explains it a bit better
http://www.fishlore.com/acclimating-tropicalfish.htm

2. water parameters - i'm not sure if you had a test kit at this time, but i'm fairly certain that your tank didn't cycle in a week. did you use any products such as cycle by nutrafin, stress zyme, or anything that claims to "instantly cycle your tank" NOT including tetra safe start (the only product i know of that can actually work)? either there was still ammonia in your tank when you added the angels and the shark, or the addition of those fish overwhelmed the tank and crashed the cycle (if it was, in fact, cycled). two angels and a rainbow shark is too much bioload for a 10 gallon tank, but we'll get to that later.

oh, and here is a link that explains the nitrogen cycle and how it works, just in case
http://www.fishlore.com/Articles/TheNitrogenCycle.htm

now, these fish are much more suitable for a 10 gallon tank. although i wouldn't necessarily agree that they are more hardy, you did end up with a better result, even if it wasn't the "correct" advice. i'll assume for now that you still have these fish. for your 10 gallon (if you plan on keeping it set up), i'd keep the gourami and the two black skirts (assuming the second tetra was also a black skirt), and get a couple more black skirt tetras so that they can have a bigger school (tetras are schooling fish), and then this tank will be maxed out in terms of bioload.

unrelated question, but do you have a heater? what kind of filter is on the 10 gallon?

the shark probably died of ammonia poisoning, for the fish that you had in your 10 gallon and since it wasn't cycled, the ammonia spiked. ammonia is extremely toxic to fish, and again for the second shark that you added he may have been shocked initially if he wasn't acclimated properly. the stress probably made him more susceptible to disease and weaker.

do you know what kind of pleco? i'm assuming that it is a common pleco, which IMO you should return or re-home as soon as possible. they get HUGE (18+ inches) and are massive waste producers even when they're young. they grow slowly and start out small, but don't let that fool you. the otos are a much better choice for that size tank, but they do prefer to be in groups, so once everything else is figured out and has settled down, i'd consider getting two more at least.

a few things here. first the paper strips are very inaccurate, and for some reason the strips think that an ammonia reading of up to .5ppm is "ideal" which it definitely isn't. my best recommendation here is to get the API freshwater master test kit, it's a liquid test that includes tests for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH, all of which are very important. it's more expensive than the strips, but will last a LOT longer and is worth the investment.

as far as pH, most fish can adjust to a pretty wide range of pH, what's more important is the stability. there are some fish that are more sensitive to pH and in those cases it should be altered, but i wouldn't recommend using chemicals (which i noticed you haven't done ), as a stable pH (which is extremely hard to achieve using chemicals) is a lot less stressful on your fish than one that is a bit too high or too low.

it may be that the driftwood was no longer releasing tannins. the driftwood itself doesn't lower pH, the tannins do. if your driftwood is releasing tannins then it will give your tank and water a bit of a tea-like coloration to it.

first, angels can be a bit finicky when it comes to whether or not they pair off. i wouldn't suggest having three angels in a 29 gallon tank because a number of things could happen. two of the angels could pair off, start spawning, and terrorize the third to death or they could all hate each other and constantly nip or fight. my suggestion would be to either purchase an established breeding pair (even if you don't want fry, but this can get expensive) OR buy six juvenile angels and wait for a pair to emerge, then return or re-home the rest.

however, before buying any fish at the moment, your best bet is going to be to do 50% daily water changes, depending on which fish you have in which tanks. did you keep any fish in the 10 gallon or is everyone in the 29 or are there fish in both? if there are fish in BOTH tanks, then you should do 50% daily water changes with a good conditioner like prime, stress coat +, or amquel + until you get consistent readings with the API master kit of 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrIte, and 5-20ppm nitrAte. once that happens, you can stop the daily changes and do 25-45% water changes with conditioner weekly.

if one of the tanks does NOT have fish in it, then in order to do a fishless cycle you need to add a source of ammonia. you can either use flake food added daily, a piece of raw shrimp in a mesh bag that you just put in the tank and wait, or you can add drops of pure ammonia daily (about 2-4ppm). you'll want to monitor your levels, and again when you get readings of 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrite, and 5-20ppm nitrate, then you can think about adding fish.

i'm not sure if boiling water works, hopefully someone else can advise you here.

oh, and the algae problem could be for a number of different reasons, but lets try to resolve this first and then tackle that

good luck!

EDIT: i type too slow!

Carissa504

Thanks for all the quick responses everyone!

I didn't clearly describe the algae-eater situation.. my dad wanted my daughter to get the pleco but once we got to the store, the guy there talked her into getting the ottocinclas guy instead. SO there is the gourami, the 2 black-skirt tetras and the catfish currently in the tank. We've had the gourami's and tetras since August 2008 (9 months now) and the catfish has been in there for about a month.

I've been very slow about putting the fish into the tank. Drives the kid nuts I put the baggie in the tank for about 15-30 minutes till the water temp is the same. Then i put a little bit of tank water in the baggie. Wait another 15-30 minutes. Put a good bit of tank water in and wait. Then i'll finally turn the bag sideways and let the fish wander out on it's own.

I guess i'll have to go get one of these fancy test kits this week.

And to answer some stuff from everyone's replies:
The first shark lived for about 4 months. The only thing that had changed recently is that we had been out of town for the holidays and had the neighbors kids feeding the fish. They had done this for us before, so i don't think they were the cause. It's just a mystery! The 2nd shark we got a month after the first one died and the 2nd guy died too.. I just don't know!

The filter is a Whisper, the medium sized one. And there's a heater in there that's supposed to work for up to 30 gal. I think it says it's a Thermo-I?? The temp stays between 72 and max i've seen it get is 78.

The algae problem was with the 10gal tank and i haven't had any issues with it since we moved to the bigger tank. The 10gal is now occupied by a baby corn snake Now, I did get some of those plant bulbs from Walmart.. i won't do that again. It was a 3-pack and we dropped those in the tank and everything got this weird fuzzy . I put some algae tablets in there every few days and then we got the catfish and he took care of the rest of the fuzzy stuff!!!!

I have a picture of the tank, let me figure out how to attach it here. The tank water is very clear, but i'm not sure if it has that "tea-color" really or not. After adding the driftwood, i did notice the colors improved on the fish!! The tetras had been looking almost faded before, but once i put the driftwood in the blacks got much darker and the gourami is more neon kinda!!


EDIT: The pic is pre-driftwood, i'll get a new pic asap

Attached Images

DSC03071.JPG (476.2 KB, 40 views)

Carissa504

Okay, here is a pic of the tank with the driftwood.. i figure i'll leave the old pic up just for any comparison

Attached Images

DSC03178.JPG (463.2 KB, 41 views)

agabr123

ah okay, i understand that certainly helps you out a lot! quick question, does the gourami bother the tetras at all? my main reason for suggesting that you keep the 10 gallon set up is that i dont think that your gourami will get along with the angels very well, so that could be hit or miss. but the angels SHOULD be okay with the tetras, provided that you buy the angels as juveniles and let them grow up with the tetras (and i'd still recommend getting more black skirts for a proper school)

that's not bad at all, but i'd definitely consider adding a little more water in shorter increments and over more time. for example, adding a little tank water every 5-10 minutes over an hour and pour out a little water from the bag into the sink each time.

my vote is still for ammonia poisoning, with more of an impact because of the stress of being in a tank too small (for the shark that was in the 10 gallon, not the 29)

i'd definitely consider getting a new heater and filter. i've had NO luck whatsoever with the whispers, they aren't very powerful and i've had several die on me. my recommendation would be an aquaclear, which is a HOB (hang on back filter) with a GPH (gallon per hour) rating of at least 240, but 300 or more would be better.

as far as the heater, it sounds like it's not powerful enough. do you know what the wattage is? if it's fluctuating that much then it's either got a faulty temperature gauge or like i said just isn't strong enough. i'd consider a marineland visi-therm stealth heater, they are the only heaters i will buy from now on and come with a lifetime guarantee. petmountain.com has the cheapest prices on them that i've seen so far. for your tank i think you want either 150 watts or 200 watts, but let me double check.

gotcha, those plants probably weren't aquatic. do you remember what kind of plants they were?

here are the links for the filter and heater i was talking about, the heater says 100 watts for up to 30 gallons, IMO that's a bit low but maybe someone else can advise on that. and i'd go with the aquaclear 70 in this case
http://www.petmountain.com/product/a...le-heater.html
http://www.petmountain.com/product/a...er-filter.html

serissime

For acclimating your fish, you should keep doing the adding-water thing, but when the time comes, you should net them out of the bag and release them like that. You don't want to dump pet store water into your tank. Otherwise, you are getting great advice and I hope things get sorted out for you. I agree with the stuff Alex said up there.

Carissa504

Oh, boy! Let's see here

Nope, the only issues have been just setting dominance. See, i got the 2nd tetra way back when because i noticed the one guy all by itself kept trying to "school" or whatever with the gourami or the shark.. and he was getting chased off. So i got the 2nd tetra to be his buddy and the poor 2nd guy... The fins were a bit shredding for a while. But everyone is all nice & pretty now. I guess the 29gal is big enough for everyone to have their own space. When I got the angel at Easter, no one really bothered that one either. I kept an eye on the tank a lot to make sure there wouldn't be any bullying and that the angel would play nice, but the angel kept to itself. .. Then on day 3, it started floating sideways and doing summersaults and finally sunk to the bottom and died. It was horrible to watch.

50w.. and i won't blame the fluctuating on the heater. The fishtank is in the living room and there's a big sliding glass door that gets hit with the full force of the sun every afternoon. The sun doesn't hit the tank, but the temps in the room aren't steady. In the winter, it can get chilly and in the summer it can get pretty darn warm. I have to keep a heater or a fan in the room to help regulate.

They are sold with the rest of the fishie stuff at Walmart. Only one sprouted WEEKS after it should have. It was ugly, but a live plant all the same so i left it in the tank for a while. Till one morning the kiddo got up before me and decided it was a good idea to rearrange everything, uprooting the plant int he process. I couldn't get it to re-root and got fed up and threw it away! Argh! I thought i took the other two bulbs out but i see one in the corner of the tank in that 2nd picture lol. So i need to take them out. Currently, there's no live plants in the tank now.

serissime

The heater should stop heating when the tank gets too warm and work harder when it's cold. If it can't heat enough, the wattage isn't strong enough.

agabr123

i'm sorry to hear that i know how hard it is to watch a fish die.

it's good though that they didn't bother each other, if you still plan on getting the angels (which i'm sure you do ) you'll just want to keep a close eye out for any aggression between them and the gourami

hmm, well a couple things. 50 watts definitely isn't large enough for your 30 gallon, especially given the draft and all that. and considering the temperature fluctuations, i definitely wouldn't go with anything less than 150 watts, and the marineland heater is by far the best IMO. i gave the links to them in my previous post in case you missed it (i added them a little later)

lol, gotcha

another question, what kind of chemicals do you have and anything else that you would add to the tank? (including water conditioner, medication, ammonia removers, pH altering chemicals, etc)

aquarist48

Hello Carissa and WELCOME to Fish Lore.

Carissa504

The only thing i use on a regular basis is the API tap water conditioner. I do have some API pH down just for when the pH gets really high. And we have some Jungle tablets for algae, ammonia, ick, etc for those just-in-case moments.

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore carissa!!
wow alot of info for you carissa ...some great members have alot of experience and im glad to see you getting help....

only thing id like to add and agree with is getting your own test kit then you wont ever have to rely on anyone telling you whats good or bad about your water...and also, I have angels that are in a variety of ph's because my MTS(multiple tank syndrome) is out of control so I dont think its totally your ph...it may play an effect from the pet stores tank ph to yours, but with a slow acclimation, that can be handled also...you dont need to ever mess with your ph as long as its stable and doesnt change , it will be fine for most fish...there is some exceptions to all the rules of course ...I think once you get a test kit, and know where you are, you can feel much better about things and know the next steps needed for your lil girl to get her angels...goodluck! and Happy Mothers Day

Carissa504

Thanks =)