mare2009

Hi..well I used the TSS a week ago Wed. Put it in both 5G betta tanks. I calculated the amount, for such small tanks. Once a day I used Prime. On the 7th day I check the parameters which read..1st tank=ammonia 2.0. nitrate 5.0, nitrite 0. 2nd tank=ammonia 1.0, nitrate 10, nitrite 0.
Of course I went into a panic and did a 50% wc. What should I do now? Or did I panic to soon? I can't have reading of 2 or even 1 ammonia in a small 5G regardless. I have heard such good reports on the TSS. Anyone use it in a 5G and how much? The fish seemed fine which puzzeled me.. Should I continue doing wc everyday, restart a TSS again? thanks in advance

Shawnie

im sorry it didnt work for you ... but if im reading this correct, you added prime before the 7 days was up? and you added it daily? TSS cannot have anything else with it for at least the 7 days...

mare2009

thanks shawnie, you know as I did it I was thinking isn't this defeating its purpose? But I was advised to do it..jessh..then I should start it again?

Franklin

Yeah,your not supposed to use anything with it.I have used it,and it worked like a charm.If you have more,or can get more,I would start over.Just add the TSS and let everything sit,with the fish in the tank,for 7 to 10 days before you do a water change.

aquarist48

Hello. If TSS is being used with fish to cycle and the ammonia is as high as Mares, and if she shouldn't be using an ammonia decreaser isn't that putting the fish at risk? When you use TSS I guess water changes would not be suggested either? Sorry for the questions but I've never used this product myself.

Franklin

Nope.Fill the tank with water,add the TSS,add the fish.I used it in a 55g that had the cycle crash.It work wonderfully for me.The ammonia went from 2ppm to 0ppm overnight.

Shawnie

TSS is designed to be used with fish ...if the ammonia got that high, it could be from the offsets of prime mixed with TSS ...Im only assuming this of course....because in a 5 gal tank with just one betta, to move the ammonia up to 2ppm's something else was going on other than the betta waste..they dont have that much waste to raise it that fast in a week...feed sparingly during those 7 days....(he wont like it but the ..extra food causes extra waste)I think the prime interfered...I would clean everything up and start over...including the filter media as you want no traces of prime when adding..or continue with the daily water changes is the other option ....

mare2009

.thanks..YUP I just put in a new sponge filter this am, So I will go get the TSS and start over. I had saved the media filter for the tank from the old filter, to put back in once I found a suitable container, but will discard it now. The interaction between the Prime and TSS makes so much sense. Could excess shrimp, bloodworms cause an ammonia spike?

Shawnie

if you mean the shrimp the betta eats, yes it can make a difference...and the bloodworms if not eaten, can also make a difference with the ammonia,,thats why feeding sparingly for the 7 days seems to help..but dont under feed...some of us just tend to ahem, ah, spoil them a bit? (speaking for myself not anyone else lol _)

ccb04

Prime detoxes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates ... for 24 HRS. By adding it everyday ... it could seemingly at the very least, substantially prolong the cycle.

BulldogWrestler

Three things.

1) You may have gotten a bad bottle that either wasn't stored correctly (as in it was exposed to extreme heat or cold) or was past its due date. All bets are off if that happens.

2) TSS can't be used in conjunction with any other bacteria enhancer or water stuff unless it's tap conditioner. Anything else and it will screw up the way TSS works.

3) You gotta give it a week to do its stuff. I know its tough, but you just have to do that. There's a lot of "false readings" that you get if you start testing while TSS is working its magic. I know, drove myself batty doing it.

I've used it in two tanks and it worked fine. The first time I had a bad bottle and drove myself nuts testing over and over again. Put in a new bottle and it worked like a charm. No probs and no fish deaths. Second tank it worked fine from the start.

Martinismommy

What is TSS? Is Murray OK?

Shawnie

tss is tetra safestart...and she said all the fishies are fine ....

bulldog i AGREE with you except the part with conditioner..that cannot even be added once the tss has been in there...you can add it a day before as ccb said but after that, NOTHING gets added for at least the 7 days

capekate

I gave the advise that using Prime with the TSS would not harm the cycle.
TSS does not safely detoxify ammonia or nitrites while being used. It releases beneficial bacteria that will adhere to the filter media, substrate and decorations. When the ammonia raises to such a high level as it did in Mare's tanks and in others while using TSS, your fish are still subject to the damages of high ammonia and nitrite just as if they were subject to it in a cycle using fish. When we cycle with fish we advise using Prime with daily water changes to help detoxify the ammonia. Prime does not interfere with cycle or the growing of beneficial bacteria, nor does it make the ammonia less available for BB to grow.Its the daily water changes that will slow your cycle down, not the use of Prime(clarify: water changes w/ vacuuming and cleaning of substrate is what I should have added as well) this. Your fish are still at risk with high ammonia, whether you are using TSS or not. TSS will shorten the duration of the cycle of which the fish will see less toxicity, but it does not protect the fish from the side effects of high ammonia and nitrite posioning.
Whether you choose not to look at the sky high readings of toxins it doesnt change the fact that it is still effecting the health of your fish.
To do a water change right after using TSS may be a waste, but after a few days or so, hopefully the BB has adhered to surfaces, just as a normal cycled tank is not distrupted by a change of water.
I will still advise to do a water change with Prime in the event the ammonia levels become so toxic for the fish, whether using TSS or not.

Shawnie

I think and cant confirm this by any means, that the TSS does do some binding of the toxins...sensitive fish and others do not die and are not effected at all in the 7 days if TSS is used properly..ive done it 6 times now with 0 failures and 0 fish showing any signs of toxins...if someone feels different as you do kate, not against anything you have said by any means, then TSS isnt for you....dont waste the money if not going to use it the way it was made and intended...I can only speak from experience not from what ive read or heard...I do think prime interfears with the TSS process even tho it makes the ammonia safe (as its intended to do) I think the chemical compounds dont allow the TSS to work..again thats IMO not facts from tetra..although maybe a phone call might be in order to tetra LOL

haedra

It's hard to say which is right, but only because you in part have to rely on information a company that wants to sell their product is giving you.

I called Tetra I think... 3 times during my safe start experience; but they never came out and told me there was anything specific in there binding up ammonia or nitrite. However, when I also got ammonia readings of 1.0ppm, the cories did not show signs of distress, either.

I also emailed Kordon (manufacturer of Amquel+) and was told that their product basically only broke certain molecular bonds, and did not interfere or make ammonia or nitrite unavailable to bacteria; but ALSO did not make nitrate unavailable to plants either.

It is a conundrum! I'm honestly not sure what I think the right answer is. It is confusing to me!

aquarist48

Even though I've never used this product, I have to agree with ammonia levels that high something has to be done about it via Prime, Amquel +...or water changes. Just my personal views. Once you get one tank cycled....seed the next one Another topic for another thread??

Shawnie

I did just call them because I wanted a better explanation than my word LOL

prime turns ammonia into ammonium which is not as toxic to fish but it still keeps some of the ammonia to feed the cycle process..the cycle will crash with just ammonium.....ammonia turns into ammonium if the pH is below 7 (ive read below 6.5 but just going on what the tetra tek support just said)

TSS needs small amounts of ammonia to work(not ammonium as that will starve the TSS bacteria).....when using the prime, it makes the bacteria starve as their is NO ammonia (even tho you can read it on your test kit, its ammonium not ammonia when using prime)

the TSS works fast in turning the ammonia to ammonium to get that cycle done quickly...

capekate

Tetra Safe Start is a patented mix of Nitrosomonas, Nitrosopira and Nitrospira. The Tetra site explains that this mix of live nitrifying bacteria starts to work immediately to reduce dangerous ammonia and nitrite.(quoted from the Tetra.com site)
We know how nitrifying bacteria works and with the use of TSS it is giving the tank a chance to cycle quickly. The information I found in their charts show the ammonia never going over 1.0 either and that the TSS keeps the ammonia and nitrite levels lower due to the fact they offer so much nitrifying bacteria to eat the ammonia...
There is nothing mentioned anywhere about TSS that states it has an additional ingrediant that helps to detoxify or make less harmful the ammonia and nitrites.With TSS your spike in ammonia should not last more than a day or two the most before it starts to lower. It is the prolonged ammonia level that concerns me.
With this said... I understand that most folks have had success with this product and I am really happy for you.
I will have to do some research to find out if Prime has any adverse affect on nitrifying bacteria,as TSS is soley nitrifying bacteria.
Experience is the best teacher.. and those that have first hand experience with this product and had success can stand by the product with conviction that it works.. I respect that.

Shawnie

yes the prime turns ammonia to ammonium(only for 24 hours then the ammonia is back up hence adding prime every 24 hours) and ammonium will not feed the bacteria..it will starve it....the tss doesnt allow the ammonia to go over 2ppm's and usually not over 1ppm if the bacteria isnt starved.....

ccb04

Shawnie, in using TSS quite recently ... I also observed zero signs of stress related to toxins, etc.

This is what Dr. Tim Hovanec (the man who discovered the necessary beneficial bacteria ... and designed both BIO-Spira and the Bio Wheel ... had to say about ammonia detoxing products in conjunction with BIO-Spira).

Using ammonia binder/removers: "the detoxified ammonia is still available to the ammonia-oxidizing bacteria which convert it to nitrite."

"Repeated dosing of your aquarium with ammonia removing liquids (such as BIO-Safe, Amquel, Ammo-lock and Aqua-Safe) can inhibit the beneficial action of BIO-Spira. Ammonia removing liquids should only be used to initially treat tap water."

http://dataguru.org/misc/aquarium/waterinfo.html

With Prime, it not only detoxes ammonia (converting it to far less toxic ammonium) ... but it also detoxes nitrites and nitrates. Thus, it detoxes the entire cycle process for 24 HRS.

As Dr. Hovanec mentions ... ammonia detoxing products can be used to initially treat tap water ... but they shouldn't be dosed repeatedly while the bacteria is trying to establish itself. AFTER the tank has cycled, products like Prime can be used as it still leaves ammonia available to the established bacteria.

TSS seems to be BIO-Spira reincarnated. Matter of fact, the salt water version is still known as 'Instant Ocean BIO-Spira'. TSS contains all the same bacteria ... only in a shelf stable formulation.

aquarist48

Thanks for calling Shawnie!!

capekate

Hi Shawnie,
thanks for checking into that.
It may actually clear up a reason why the TSS is not working in my sisters tank. Her PH is around 6.0 which means the ammonia in the tank is turning to ammonium and starving the TSS. It may also explain why her fish did not show symptoms of high ammonia, since ammonium is less toxic.
But... on the other hand, my own PH is around 6.2-4 and if my ammonia is constantly turning to ammonium, it would mean that my tank's cycle would crash if we went by what the tetra techie told you.
My tank has not crashed and they are all cycled.
I would suggest to Mare not to bother with anymore TSS, if it is not going to be able to work with her PH level. And go with the seeded media instead.

Shawnie

no it wouldnt crash if established as the fish poo and food etc , is feeding the bacteria..at this point, you dont need the ammonia directly to feed it...ph at this point in a cycled tank, isnt as important as it would be during the cycle process...you know mare's tanks more than me and I hope things look up for her..I was mainly suggesting why TSS didnt work for her not how she should do things....although I agree with that low ph, the seeded might be a better safer route for all the precious babys

BulldogWrestler

I know that. I was saying that its ok to condition the tap water and then add TSS. Nothing else should come in the equation.

capekate

Thanks Shawnie
This is why discussion is so important. Without your phone call to the company we (my sis and I) would never have known that the low Ph level can affect the productivity of the TSS.
That may very well be the reason that TSS works for some and not for others.
Also, thanks for clearing that up for me on the cycled tank and low PH.
... now Im off to my sis's house so that I can see her four new platy fry.

Shawnie

no thank you for asking which in turn prompted me for better answers than I can give or word LOL (you know me and my brunette moments!! )

capekate

lol... mee too!

mare2009

No let me be the one to THANK you ALL

Sunshine State

When I was cycling my newest tank with TSS, I called the company (Tetra). I spoke with someone who seemed very knowledgeable. He told me it was ok to use a tap water conditioner. Their literature recommend using their product Tetra AquaSafe to condition water prior to adding the TSS. He said absolutely NOT to use any product that removes/detoxifies ammonia, nitrites, etc. So that's what I did, and all wil going very well. It's been almost two weeks and new tank (120 gallon) is about finished with the cycle. Nice and easy, five fish are healthy and growing already.