bobdole369

Hi all,

I've had my aquarium - and all the original fish that I started with for over a year now.

I started as a total noob and didn't know anything about the cycle, etc. So the only thing I knew to do from being a kid was to let the water sit overnight before adding fish (didn't know why) - and to use the water conditioner. So on day 2 we had run the thing (27 gal hex) overnight with condx and tap water - through the penguin 200 biowheel HOB. We picked up 2 jack dempseys, a tiger barb, a kissing gourami, and a firemouth. I also didn't know much about fishtank capacity, or what types to keep with each other (that gourami should have been dead a LONG time ago with all those cichlids in there, but go figure he's a fighter!)

Anywho the water got cloudy after a few days and I got on the ole internet and learned about the cycle and spent a week reading everything that I did wrong.

I picked up an API kit about 2 weeks in and at that point my numbers were:

pH 6.8
ammonia 0.5
nitrites 0.0
nitrate 0.0

I started doing 20% or so water changes every couple days waiting for the cycle. The fish were absolutely fine during this.

My ammonia crept up to 1.0 then 2.0 - and I started doing 50% changes first every other day, then every day - eventually the ammonia came down to around 0.5 and settled. This was at about 2 months in - I went down to 1 20% and 1 50% change weekly. I didn't see the ammonia get any higher than 0.5 for the next 3 months.

FINALLY - at 5 months I saw nitrates at 5.0 - barely. I figured the cycle had started and I went down to weekly 20%. I tested twice monthly after that and while the ammonia got to 1.0 from time to time, my water changes brought it down a bit - to 0.5 and the 5.0 nitrate went to 0.0 with the weekly 20% change.

I thought it was fine. granted I had too much ammonia but *someday* the bacteria would pick up and

I even thought my test kit was bad. No WAY I could always have ammonia, but still see an increasing nitrate level right?! The bacteria must feed on something and they must eventually catch on right?!

Well last month I went out of town for a week and missed a change. This through it all out of whack. By the time I got around now to testing again - my numbers were (this afternoon):

ph 6.0
ammonia 8.0!!!!!
nitrite 0.0
nitrate somewhere between 80 and 160!

OK, so my fish are gonna die right?! So 50% water change, then changed both filters - now my CURRENT numbers:

ph - 7.2
ammonia 4.0
nitrite 0.0
nitrate between 20-40

I should mention that I've been religiously changing the filter every couple weeks. It gets clogged up with what must be fish poo - its sorta orange/red goop.

Could I just be feeding them too much? or could my food have a ton of ammonia somehow? I feed different combos of orange "cichlid sticks" - Cichlid "floating pellets", cichlid staple pellets, sinking cichlid crumbles and flakes. weekly I give a dozen little guppies that the big guy downs in a day or so. My fish are ALWAYS ravenous and consume whatever I give them almost instantly. I feed several times a day and I never see food hit the bottom or even float around longer than 10 minutes.

I have not fed since the 50% change- so a food source of high ammonia seems unlikely.

One thing of note - I couldn't believe that ammonia was still high - so I tested my tap water - 1.0 reading!!! good thing I don't drink that! Zephyrhills bottled water from the fridge tests at 0.0 so I don't think the kit is wrong.

Any suggestions? I'm gonna get amquel I think tomorrow just to detoxify the ammonia - while I work on why I can't get a cycle going in over a year!

Also note - I have NEVER seen nitrite at anything but 0.0

In any event the fish don't seem to be bothered by the omnipresent ammonia!

Lucy

Hi bobdole369 welcome to Fish Lore

Good idea about the amquel, I use prime, it does the same thing.

By changing you filter media every couple of weeks, you're throwing out a lot of the beneficial bacteria that processes the ammonia.
Just rinse it in used tank water when it gets really nasty.

If you use carbon, that can expire and release whatever toxins it's collected back into the water. I'd suggest either not using the carbon or just change the carbon every couple of weeks, but keep the old catridge/pouch it comes in.

You've had a time of it, good luck.

clinton1621

Changing the filter pads is your problem... the bacteria live in the filter pads, so every time you throw them away, you are throwing away most of your bacteria... which will make your cycle NEVER COMPLETE! Also with nitrates levels that high, I would assume you need to vacuum your gravel more often (at least twice a month) or you may be overfeeding your fish, they only need fed once a day... twice a day max.

Heres what you need to do... stop throwing the filters away, instead rinse them off lightly with dechlorinated water to get the sludge off and then put them back in... start cleaning the gravel at least two times a month with a gravel vac... keep doing daily water changes (not filter changes!) until the ammonia level drops to 0 and the nitrates are between 5 and 20.

Edit : The ammonia reading from your tap is from chloramine, theres nothing you can do about that... other than using spring water to fill the tank, but once the tank is fully established it shouldnt make a difference because the bacteria will process the ammonia out very quickly

bobdole369

Hi Lucy, Thanks for the welcome! I've lurked off and on here a bit in the past. I figured now was the time I needed some serious help!

OK clinton - I've just changed them, but I won't do that anymore. I haven't vacuumed the gravel - ever - because the water changes seem to move the gravel around enough to kick up poo everywhere and the filter seemed to take care of it. I'll pick up a gravel vac tomorrow and use it.

I'll also reduce the amount and number of times I feed.

Do the biowheels actually work? Mine looks clean as the day I put it in with the filter. I thought the bacteria were supposed to live in the wheel? Learn something new everyday!

Alessa

Hello and welcome, you received some good advice above.

Yes, the filter changing is what will never allow your tank to cycle, and nitrates at that level are toxic. I do gravel vacuums every week with the weekly water change, and it helps with the poo, that after a while becomes uncomfortable for the fish.

the biowheels do work, but they are slow on growing bacterial colonies, and will not do that much if the filter pad is changed. (since most of the bacteria lives there).

Lucy

Oh, you definitely need to vacuum, all that fish waste and any left over food will create ammonia.
I do it weekly.

It may kick up a lot of stuff especially since you've never done it, but it'll settle down after a little while.
Once you get a handle on it, it won't be so bad.

I've heard good and bad things about the bio wheel. I don't have one.
You won't see the bacteria, but it's there.

clinton1621

I'm somewhat skeptical about bio-wheels... and if they still look clean then there is probably very little bacteria on them. Bacteria are microscopic, but when they colonize they produce a sticky slime that eventually turns brown from the waste that it traps to feed the bacteria. Thats why filters turn brown and slimy looking in an established tank, that means they have plenty of bacteria built up in them.

bobdole369

OK so I felt like I went on a snipe hunt last night - it was pretty funny actually!

I purchased this cheap "air powered" gravel vacuum. It extends to 18" long. I didn't think about it, but my tank is about 22" tall. It has this sock and you connect an airline to it. I had one heck of a time trying to figure out how to use it to vacuum anything!

Talk about a piece of . So I'm forearm deep in water thinking to myself - WTF do these people actually expect me to do this? (gravel vacuum <snicker> - make him get a gravel vacuum LOL <snicker>) I know its not like that I was just amazed at how cheezy that thing is. It wouldn't pick up anything at all, and I could have done a better job stirring everything up with a stick I found outside for free!

I think I got the idea, the air bubbles travel up the stem of the device, which should bring some water with it. Its supposed to create a low pressure area and the idea is that it should vacuum up anything at the other end, the sock is supposed to be a vacuum filter. Yeah right. Anything that traveled up the stem did so on its own, the pressure was so miniscule to be ridiculous!

Looking further into it I realized that what I'm supposed to have is basically a siphon with a big funnel or tube on the end of it. I had purchased something meant to be "easy to use". LOL

Anyhoo after stirring it all up I did another 50% change - using prime as the conditioner.

My before/after:

Before
ph - 7.2
ammonia between 4.0 and 8.0
nitrite 0.25
nitrate 40

After
ph - 7.0
ammonia 2.0
nitrite 0.0
nitrate 5.0


FIRST TIME EVER seeing a nitrite reading!!! Something is happening!

OK, after all that a few hours later I rinsed the filter pads with tank water. I actually used a spray bottle full of tank water (that I had flushed prior) - to get all the gravel poo and junk out. I didn't spend forever on it, just got the really nasty stuff out. I also cut some of the plastic backing and removed 95% of the charcoal from both filters. I put them back in and by morning the water was crystal clear.

I'll do another test tonight, and try and find the siphon style gravel vac.

You should see me trying to do water changes too, its very comical - I'm using the "dunk 2 empty gallon water jugs and fill them, then dump them into a 5 gallon bucket - periodically dumping the water in the sink" method. I've been refilling with empty 2.5 gallon water jugs with a couple ml of prime dumped in as I'm filling.

Now I find out that siphoning with the gravel vac is how most folks do it. Wow I'm a noob. And to think I've been doing this every week or two for a year.

Shawnie

LOLOLO great story! and what a nice visual

your almost there!!!!!!! great work ...but im still giggling

Lucy

Funny story!

Great job, you're getting there.

bobdole369

WOW!!! I got the right gravel vac now. Simple large, about 16" long, so I still get wet, but just my hand at first. It cost $16. I have a 5 gallon bucket and my tank is just shy of 30 gallons so 3 nearly full buckets gives me a 50% change.

I got the siphon started simply enough, I'm well versed in siphoning It brought up some gravel, and I was dead shocked by the brown gunk that came up when I pulled up a bit! WOAH! I had no idea how much stuff was in the gravel. No wonder I always have ammonia! How did my fish live? I feel so bad now!!!

OMG there was so much brown. I already knew not to watch the fish, but the bucket, but I still almost made a gigantic mess! I was enthralled and wanted to get as much of the out as I could.

Any tips on how to refill without creating a massive whirlpool? I tried using a cut open gallon jug, but that just wasn't cutting it. 40 lbs of water is heavy! I need both hands to heft that thing up there and I tried going very slow but man is that hard to do. I ended up with a small mess anyways, but I'll get better at it.

New numbers:

Before:
ph - 6.8
ammonia 4.0
nitrite 0.25
nitrate 40

Here are the after numbers:

ph - 7.0
ammonia 2.0
nitrite 0.0
nitrate kinda between 10-20 hard to see for me.

Oh and my filter is still spotless - I didn't stir it all up so not much went in there.

I'm guessing that I probably don't need to really vac it tomorrow - I won't have nearly as much stuff.

Lucy

4.0 ammonia? After a 50% change?
Whew, I'd be tempted to do another change in a couple of hours......or, are you using Prime......lots of it?


The good thing is, you're showing nitrites and you've got the gravel vac almost down.
It's amazing the stuff that builds up isn't it?

Red1313

Haha and welcome to the fish world. I feel your pain.

bobdole369

Look again I added the "after" numbers.

I'm seeing a slow gradual decrease in the ammonia, we'll see if trends continue - as they should.

I'm using about a "thread" worth of prime per 5 gallon bucket. It says on the bottle a capful (5ml) treats 50 gallons.

Lucy

Yeah, I saw the "after" It must have been 8.0 before.

I'd be freaking and doing another change.

clinton1621

To prevent whirlpools when you are filling the tank, I always stick my hand under the opening of the jug or bucket as the water comes out... this slows the water down as it hits your hand and goes into the tank, and keeps it from blowing everything all over the place =)

bobdole369

Did another 50% change last night, vacuumed just a bit, not at all like yesterday. Found a few spots where I was still getting a bit of brown, but overall I think I got all the old junk out.

I didn't take a before and I decided to wait until morning to test (10 hours later).

results:

pH 7.0
Ammonia - 0.50! (maybe a bit more than that, but it hadn't reached the color of the 1.0 mark).
Nitrite - 0.0 (maybe just a tinge of purple there so perhaps 0.05 nitrite)
Nitrate - 20.


I'm getting there!

I'm so happy to not see a deep dark green on the ammonia test!

I also found that if I didn't fill the 5 gal bucket to the rim it was much easier to pour and I could hold the bucket with one arm against my hand on the side, then I could use my other hand to deflect the stream and reduce the terrible torrent to a heavy rain

I'll keep doing these 50% changes till I get a 0 ammonia in the morning, then I'll drop to about a 25% change till I'm positive the cycle is kicked in.

Filter is full of brown and slimy, but no particulate matter and no decrease in throughput. I left it alone. I'm willing to bet now that I'm vacuuming I won't think I need to replace it so often.

Lucy

If it gets real gunky, just rinse it gently in used tank water.

bobdole369

Did all the changes for the past few days, current numbers:

pH 6.8
Ammonia 0.25
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 10

Just waiting for that last wee bit of ammonia to go away!

Lucy

That's great! Good progress.

bobdole369

Been over a week now. Daily 50% changes. The last 3 nights have had an ammonia reading between 0 and 0.25 - just a touch of green. Nitrates have been at about 10-20.

Last nights test was absolutely - positively 0.0. No green at all in the tube!

pH 6.8
Ammonia 0.0
Nitrite 0.0
Nitrate 20

I think I can forego the daily 50% now, but I'm still gonna test it and this weekend I'll start every couple three days 25%, and back off until I'm doing it weekly.

Lucy

Doesn't it feel good to be cycled? Congratulations!

Red1313

YAY!!! All that work and you still love your tank, , now all the water changes to come will feel like no work at all.

JakeTeque

I can't believe after all the reasearch I have done to avoid making dumb noob mistakes that I missed the filter pad info... It makes perfect sense though, that bacteria colonizes there. Ironic I read this thread after I did a 50% water change for my oscars and changed the filter pad...

BUT AT LEAST I LEARNED SOMETHING TODAY!

Lucy

There's always something new to learn.

Clare12345

Could the reading of a high level of ammonia in some peoples tanks be caused by chloramine and not ammonia also? Like if they did not use a chloramine remover? Maybe thats partly why the readings are so high.