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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Bum
| Coppersafe and plants?
Hi all,
I went out and got some Coppersafe to try and kill some parasites that seem to be in my tank and on my fish. On the bottle it says it's harmful to some plants. I have several Anubias Nanas (which seem to be virtually indestructible), and a java fern. Does anyone know if I'll harm these plants if I put in the Coppersafe?
Thanks! | 
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Hello Pepsi. Here is a link to a thread concerning CopperSafe. Seems it has good and bad reviews. It's a very strong medication. It's also been stated that it may harm the biological cycle. I've never used this product myself so I can't give you first hand information on it. Hang on for some more responses. Best of luck.
Ken copper safe question | 
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Pepsi I used Coppersafe with my plants for a month and had no losses from the treatment. I did lose a plant to the Salt treatment I used prior to the Coppersafe.
I did alot of research before I used it and expected some losses but it all worked out. It was also the only thing out of 4 different types of treatments that got rid of my ICH. I would use this product again in a heartbeat!
DO make sure and get a test kit that can measure Chelated copper levels as you have to make sure not to go over a certain PPM. (2-3 I believe) API is the one I used.
I had no change in the biological cycle either. I used it in conjuction with Maracyn 2 (for secondary infection per Mardel's instructions)
Hope this helps!
-Nate
Last edited by Nate McFin; July 26th, 2009 at 09:57 AM.
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Bum
| Thanks for the help! I was reading in another post you had that it can be harmful to ottos and catfish? ....just how toxic is it to them? I have 5 ottos (my cleaning team) and 2 cats I never see, and the fish I'm treating are 2 bengal loaches who are showing signs of flukes. I initially treated with Maracide, but they keep flashing excessively and are starting to turn pale. They're due for the last dose of Maracide today. Mardel says Coppersafe and Maracide are recommended to be used in conjunction with one another, but if the coppersafe might kill my fish... Seems I'm in trouble if I do and in trouble if I don't! I don't have a hospital tank, nor a place I could keep one, and moving them to a pristine new tank that's uncycled seems like it could do more harm now than good... Ugh!
The tank has 0ppm ammonia, nitrate and nitrite, temp is 80*
What to do? Should I add the coppersafe and then watch everyone carefully?
Kelly | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| I treated gill flukes once with PraziPro (praziquantel) and it worked well. Is that what you're treating? Prazi didn't affect my plants or biofilter, and it was a heavily planted tank. | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi216  Thanks for the help! I was reading in another post you had that it can be harmful to ottos and catfish? ....just how toxic is it to them? | CopperSafe is chelated copper sulfate. SkepticalAquarist.com says the following about this chemical: Quote:
dissolved copper in concentrations of 0.2 ppm will kill some fishes in 24 hours. After mercury, copper is the most toxic of the heavy metals. When adjusted weight for weight, in the analysis called "molar toxicity," copper in fact is more poisonous to fishes than lead.
Apparently some species of fish are more sensitive to copper than others. In common with plants from soft waters, softwater fishes like tetras tend to be more susceptible. There's a simple connection here. The toxicity of copper is tied to the pH of the water. Copper's toxicity depends on free Cu++ ions. While it remains free and "bioavailable," copper is quite reactive, and poisonous. In water copper is quickly chelated (chemically bound) to organic molecules, like humic acids or amino acids, or complexed to anions (negatively charged ions). It can be adsorbed onto fresh activated charcoal, or to colloidal clay and particulate floc, either in the water or in the substrate. Organic molecules such as humic substances and amino acids act quickly; even low levels of dissolved organics efficiently scavenge Cu++ from the water.
The pH factor makes free copper unstable. As alkalinity increases, copper ions tend to bind to calcium carbonate and precipitate out, so that the concentration of available Cu ions in the water decreases. The green skin of the Statue of Liberty is largely a copper carbonate. But carbonates are part of the pH buffer; if the pH drops at a later time, carbonates will tend to dissolve into bicarbonates, and the toxic copper ion gets set free again. So a therapeutic level of copper in water at a higher pH level can be a lethal dose at lower pH values. And very soft water renders copper more undependably toxic and less stable, for pH values can shift in lightly-buffered water. If the pH dips below 6.0 even some adsorbed copper can become soluble and toxic again. So, that effective level of medicinal chelated copper, which had been chemically bound during a forgotten medicinal treatment long ago, can come back to haunt you, if bio-acidification should slowly lower your pH.
| So the short answer is... it depends on the fish and the pH of the water. The quote above mentions that 0.2 ppm (200 ppb) can be fatal to some fish in as little as 24 hours, but studies have show that even as low as 5 ppb can have an impact on their ability to function: Quote:
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has set the maximum safe level of copper for aquatic life at 13 parts per billion, well above that needed to wipe out the salmon's ability to sense chemical cues. Yet Greg Pyle, at Ni****ing University in North Bay, Ontario, Canada, has found chemosensory problems at three levels of the food chain at or below 5 ppb, the limit set by Ontario's water quality standards. "The phenomenon is ubiquitous," he says.
Leeches lost their ability to smell food, zooplankton were unable to evade predators, and fathead minnows couldn't recognize their eggs; the fish ate them instead of protecting them. The contamination in these lakes is much too weak to kill these organisms outright, Pyle says, yet their populations are suffering.
| In another article on the Kordon website, they even go so far as to say: Quote:
Copper treatments in the chelated and ionic form are very powerful treatments against external infections. However, they have their serious drawbacks, and are not recommended to be used in aquarium and pond keeping. Know what you are doing if and when you use copper treatments. Remove the copper ions immediately after usage by using one of the Kordon NovAquas, Fish Protector, or PolyAqua that removes heavy metals from water, gravel, glass walls of the aquarium, and decorations. . Otherwise, in place of copper treatments use treatments easier to handle that are of less potential harm to the fishes, and to the aquarium and pond environment.
| Kordon sells a chelated copper product, and even they suggest not using it if you aren't certain you need to.
It can be fine, but it can also be pretty risky. What type of flukes are you looking to treat? | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Bum
| Based on what I've read I believe my loaches have gill flukes. They're flashing excessively, turning pale, hiding (though hiding is not necessarily unusual with them, but usually I see them peek out a lot more), and for a while they weren't eating. They're usually very good about keeping my snail population under control, but recently I've also noticed a lot more of the little buggers. I think the loaches are eating more now, but still not very much.
Where can I find PraziPro? The only fish store we have around here is Petsmart... do they sell it there? Is there something else I should try instead?
I'll post this over in the fish disease forum too since the topic has transitioned away from plants 
Thanks for your help! | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| I'm not sure about Petsmart. I got mine from a friend's shop, you may have to order online if you want to try it. | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Is the flashing the only sign of gill flukes that you are seeing? Loaches will flash if nitrates are high also. Just a thought.
Carol | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Mentor
| As for copper and plants:
Copper is considered a micronutrient for plants. Problem is that if too much is available, plants could suffer. That said, the safe level of Cu++ for fish is 0.02ppm, way much lower than the safe level for humans, that is 1.3ppm. Cu++ could be already available in your water source and substrate (e.g. if it contains humic acids).
Cu++ will be absorbed by plants in the aquarium, protecting most fish from it; however, plants do not regulate how much they end uptaking and if too much is present, they will just take it in and end up with a metal intoxication, which tipically shows in brown spots and tissue brakeup.
(This info comes mostly from Peter Hiscock, 2003, Encyclopedia of Aquatic Plants, p.76)
Pepetj
Santo Domingo | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Butterfly Is the flashing the only sign of gill flukes that you are seeing? Loaches will flash if nitrates are high also. Just a thought.
Carol | Good point Butterfly. I should have asked. I pegged my issue as gill flukes when my discus' gills became red and they seemed to have labored breathing, as well as flashing. The Prazi helped in that situation. | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Quote:
Originally Posted by harpua2002 Good point Butterfly. I should have asked. I pegged my issue as gill flukes when my discus' gills became red and they seemed to have labored breathing, as well as flashing. The Prazi helped in that situation. | Good diagnosis on the discus
Pepsi
I noticed in a previous post that your parameters are stated as Ammonia 0, Nitrites 0, and Nitrates 0. I also noticed the tank has been set up for a year but usually a cycled tank has at least some Nitrates. Could something have caused a mini cycle?
Loaches will flash at the drop of a hat if the Nitrates are a little high, an ammonia spike etc anything that irritates them a little. They will grey(fade) out as a normal part of playing or not feeling well. Just trying to eliminate the easier things to fix .
Carol | |
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July 26th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| If you are using the API test kit for Nitrates you need to really bang the second bottle around or you will get false readings. If you are using test strips they can be pretty innacurate. | |
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July 28th, 2009
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| | Fish Bum
| Sorry guys, I completely forgot I still had an active post over here! I went and re-posted over at the fish disease board and promptly forgot about my other question. Thanks for your help while I was away!
You're right, nitrates reading was incorrect; in my haste to find a cure I didn't check what I had written. Nitrates are at 40ppm, though I just did a 25% water change in the tank. Incoming nitrates from the tap water are 20ppm (makes me wonder if I should be drinking that water...)
I seem to only have one loach left... or at least I can't find the other one after much searching. My remaining loach still is flashing against anything and everything, or hiding inside his castle when he's not careening across the tank. He's still more pale than normal as well. I also lost a gourami yesterday suddenly; I don't know if his death was linked at all. He was doing fine until yesterday morning when he seemed a little lethargic, then all of a sudden he was gone that afternoon. Seems to be one thing after another... everyone else in the tank is happy but I don't know if that's saying much at this point.
I mentioned in the other forum, but I should mention here as well: we recently relocated from San Francisco to Phoenix about 4 weeks ago, and brought all our fishies with us. Despite our best efforts, we lost most of them, with only the two loaches and two catfish surviving. We got them and the tank settled, and they seemed fine until a week and a half ago. I wonder if the different water could be an issue... but why would they go two and a half weeks with no problems? I treat with dechlor every water change, and occasionally add a little aquarium salt. The catfish to my knowledge are fine.
I'll see if I can find the Prazi online; unfortunately we only have a million and one Petsmarts here (though fortunately they seem to be staffed by people with at least some fish knowledge!) Is there anything else you recommend I do as well?
Thanks for your help! I hope he gets better soon...
Kelly | |
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July 28th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Did you quarantine the new fish before you added them?
It is possible the water could damage gills over time but since you just added fish as well Salt and Catish can be a problem as well if I am not mistaken. I know Coreys dont do well with salt. (For the same reason as Coppersafe-it burns their skin) | |
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July 29th, 2009
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| | Fish Bum
| Seems the water change did the trick! Not only is there little to no flashing, but I have two loaches again! I came home from work yesterday and they both swam up to say hi!
Thank you everyone for your help!!
Kelly | |
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July 29th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Glad all turned out well Thanks for letting us know.
Carol | |
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July 30th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Well done! Glad to hear everything is on the mend. | |
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