mrrv

hello all. we started putting some plants into our 20 gallon barb tank and have decided that we'd like to try growing moss or a small leaved plant on a piece of driftwood (not pictured). our new LFS person was super helpful and recommended propping the driftwood on a rock as to elevate it to give it better light. we are soaking it right now and will go back in a few days to get the plant and the string to to it onto the wood. I have been reading about CO2, and am wondering if it is completely necessary for the plants in the tank to thrive or even possible for our incoming small leaved plant to root onto the driftwood without CO2 or better lighting.

I was looking into the HAGEN PLANT GRO CO2 NATURAL SYSTEM, but I am not sure what lighting we would need to work in conjunction with the CO2 system. we are currently using the fixture and bulb that came with our tank which I don't think is strong enough. any input would be much appreciated. thanks!

Butterfly

Welcome to FishLore! Java Fern, Java Moss, Anubias, and Bolbitis are all commonly attached to rock or wood. They are also considered low light plants. So high lights or co2 aren't necessary.
Love your tank set up I really hate to tell you but the plant on the left is non-aquatic, http://www.plantgeek.net/plant-276.htm
Here is a short list of non-aquatic plants commonly sold at pet stores.
http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_...hp?category=11
Do you know what kind of plant you are going to get to tie to your piece of wood?
Again welcome to FishLore
Carol

coffeebean

what kind of lighting do you currently have? how many watts? co2 is not necessary unless you have high watts per gallon.

pepetj

mrrv:
If you enjoy putting some time (given you do have the time) to work around your tank frequently. I don't see why not give this a try. If you go for it, get GH and KH liquid reagent tests.

Keep in mind that in order to do this you should consider reading a bit so you can understand what goes on in your tank system. Using CO2 injection with a "plug and play" approach can be risky. Some have lost their fish due to this. GH is important for pH stability if we keep plants. KH is essential, as you may already know (or about to find out).

Getting the Hagen Nutrafin Plant Grow Natural System with CO2 will cost you close to 40USD. This kit requires you to add sugar and water and should run your tank for 90 days. I consider a good idea to get one of these to get started.

When I went into CO2 I looked for this same system at the LFS. All I got was the ladder.

Things you may need to understand (I'm still trying to grasp all this)
1) CO2 and O2 don't outcompete each other as dissolved gasses but water agitation removes CO2 and increases O2. Too little CO2 and your upgrade is non-existing; too much CO2 and your system eventually will collapse, fish dying not being rare.
2) Substrate: at the very least mix a good plant substrate with your "inert" aquarium gravel or sand. Plants with root systems take most of their nutrients from the substrate, not the water column (exception of CO2, lighting and probably something else)
3) Lights: The WPG rule is quite limited. For planted tanks, when talking about fluoresecents, the 6,400 to 6,700K strikes a good balance for the wavelengths needed for photsynthesis. Only if your tank is really deeep (say 26 or 30") consider the up to 20,000K. Look for lux or lumens, in general, the higher the better.

Going DIY will save you money but will take away some time: checking for leaks, replacing the mixture, sterilizing bottles prior to refill, maintenance of diffusor or reactor.
CO2 Generator: You could have a good, custom made, sugar-baking soda-yeast CO2 generator using empty one or two 2L and one 20oz soda bottles (I use Coca-Cola), one air check valve (the ones without metalic parts inside), and CO2 safe silicon hose (you could use regular airpump hose but will need to replace it once a year, maybe sooner).
CO2 diffuser or reactor: As to inject CO2 into the tank, I use a Hagen Elite mini-filter, the Hagen Ladder I purchased first, even a small piece of Chinese food wooden stick works great. Some use a micro-bubble airstone.

If you end up needing lighting upgrade your plants will tell you. It may be that your actual lights are enough for the plants you keep. If you indeed need to upgrade then consider re-doing your lamp assembly. Just replace the standard fluorsecent system (meaning take everything but the light switch out and keep the -usually black lamp cover. Paint the interior of the plastic housing with ultra white spray paint. Place standard bulb sucket ready Compact Fluorescent (I recommend the mini-spiral) that do not exceed the wattage (in terms of heat) the plastic housing can handle. If your plastic lamp cover has a sticker indicating 17W, then use several lamps rated at 17W maximum. To do this you will need to perform some electric work, ask for help if you feel you are not sure you can do this safely. This usually cheap CF bulbs might need replacement as frequent as every three or four months.

Other options for CO2 without all this "complications" is using Seachem Flourish Excel (be careful to not overdose). Adding small amounts of this product daily or every other day works wonderfully. Some use this in conjuction with CO2 systems.

Recently I found claims in some substrates that suggest non-CO2 use will still provide good plant growth (e.g. Azoo Plant Grower Bed; Red Sea Flora Base).

Hope I'm not sounding like lecturing you. That is not my intention.

Pepe
Santo Domingo
PS I don't use CO2 in all my tanks. I use low-end light plants that look beautifully in the non-CO2 tanks.

Butterfly

Pepe thanks for the more technical side of CO2. I'm really not as up on it as I should be so thanks for that informatiob.
Pepe- Is it true that a normally slow growing plant under co2 injection and stronger lights will not grow faster?
Carol

mathas

I'd be curious to hear the theory/science behind this belief.


I'm not entirely convinced that's the case.

Wright Huntley's article "Watts, lumens, and hogwash" has been reproduced for years around the internet, and it makes sense to someone without a strong scientific background like myself.

To quote definitions from Wikipedia with emphasis in bold added by me:

To quote from the Huntley article I linked to:

edit: sorry for hijacking the thread

pepetj

I guess the answer to your question is both yes and no since some slow growing plants that do well in low light (e.g. anubias barteri var. barteri), at least in my limited experience went from around one leaf per month without CO2 (had six leaves without in July 2008) ended up developing at noticeably faster rates with CO2 (three leaves in two months). Of course other factors went into play: substrate upgrade to Eco-Complete, mild regimen of fertilization, and upgrade in lighting.

I do figure some plants will stay at low growth rate despite our intervention to enhance their environment, likely limited by genetic markers.

To my dear Sirdarksol:
The info on deeper tanks requiring higher color temperature comes from Carl Strohmeyer, a experienced guy that I ended up respecting for the honesty in the level of evidence he backs his information. He is the owner of Americana Aquarium Products. Please visit his article "How lighting works" he elaborates a bit on the idea.
http://www.americanaquariumproducts...._Lighting.html

The comment that the higher lumen or lux the better is just a guideline that I find better than the WPG. It is no secret that comparing the wattage from an incandescent bulb with the wattage of a Compact Fluorescent is not the same as comparing apples to apples. Same applies to wattage from a T-2 and a Metal Halide lamp.


I'll be reading the article you sent the link to as now

Thanks
Pepe
Santo Domingo

Butterfly

Pepe I believe that was Mathas that replied to your post Instead of Sirdarksol
Both Links (yours and Mathas) were very illuminating (pun intended )
I love learning more about things I don't know near enough about and still don't but I'm getting there.
carol

mathas

I've read that article several times, I even used it as a reference in my long-winded Color Temperature: Does it matter for a planted tank? thread It's a very good article, but what I didn't see is any justification or explanation of why he feels that way regarding color temperature and tank depth.

As I noted in my color temperature post linked above, plants need light in the red and blue ends of the spectrum. The article you linked to specifically says "What is often a bigger issue, especially with deep tanks (over 24 inches) is to allow as much of the blue light (which is found as part of the light spectrum of high PAR Daylight 6400 K lights) as possible through to the tank".

I realize from my own internet-sleuthing that light with a shorter wavelength can penetrate into deeper water, meaning blue light reaches deeper than red light.

I can kind of see what he's getting at, in that if you were lucky enough to own a tank deep enough for spectral absorption to be a factor that you would want to focus on light at a wavelength suitable for penetrating the entire depth of the tank, I'm just not sure that 24" is the turning point. Everything I can find regarding spectral absorption and water depth is defined in terms of meters, which is a far cry from being applicable to most home aquaria.

It could be, I've just not seen any compelling evidence.

Chrisson

Do you take your plants out of the pot when you buy it? I noticed on the 3rd plant from the left still has something that looks like a pot.

mrrv

hey guys. first off, thanks for the input! this website and community has been a great!

butterfly- thanks for that info. I was quite curious about that one because I have a super similar plant to that in my room that I got at ikea. About the same size too! but more leaves. Do you think we should just remove the plant from the tank? or see how it fairs? We got them at petland, and so far the intel from their sales associates has been extremely shotty... Luckily we recently have found a LFS that we can trust.

coffee: we currently have a 15W bulb in there. Hood came with the tank but the fixture is the same size as a 10 gallon because we took the bulb out of a 10 gal hood because when we got it, the bulb in there was a bit weak.

I like our fish and would hate to compromise them so I think I am going to do a strictly planted tank in one of our 10 gals just to get the hang of the co2 and lighting. From what everyone has been posting, it seems (a bit) over my head based on my experience :P but the info and articles have been enlightening nonetheless, thanks pepetj and mathas.

The retail price of the hagen system is 40.00, as pepetj previously stated, but (I think) I managed to find one on amazon for 18.00 (25 after shipping). I guess we will find out when it arrives. Refurbished maybe? If that kind of thing exists for aquarium products? Here is the link for anyone interested:

http://www.amazon.com/PLANT-GRO-Natu...5127807&sr=8-2

Chrisson: The plants we bought that came in a pot, which we haven't yet taken out. We decided to do that when we received all of the things we want, then we will landscape and set all the roots out of their pots. From type of gravel you seen in the photo, what would you recommend as a fertilizer or supplement? I have read that people use a supplement that is sort of mixed in with the substrate. Is this the best way? are there alternatives.

coffeebean

you are going to need more then 15 watts to grow them successfully. the lowest wattage i have in my planted tanks is 1.2. you also need to make sure you choose plants to suit the wattage available.

pepetj

Definetely right on this one. I figure the lapsus came from the gratefulness I have to sirdarksol when he helped me out with my substrate upgrade as I was thinking of my experience in that tank when I was replying. Hope Mathas doesn't mind my slip. As a man of science myself, I fully understand Mathas remarks.

Photosynthesis is a quite complex phenomenae. I'm at entry level here.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

mathas

Not in the slightest.

You and me both! The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

Butterfly

Oh me too! I love when you guys get to discussin'
Carol