Elvishswimmer

Its been 3.5 weeks since I started fishless, this is my readings using API tests:

ammonia: Between 2 and 3
Nitrites: off the charts
Nitrates 5

The thing is that it has been like this for about 3 days now, with no change.
My water temp was at an even 80F for the most part, and then I read that the higher temp the better for cycling, so I cranked up my heater and the temp is at 85F now.

I have two filters going at the moment, as I just added the new one, and I have the water level a little low so that there could be some air exchange from it coming out of the filter.

I've been afraid that my tank isn't getting enough oxygen for the bacteria to grow in such high temperatures though. I found when I overdosed with ammonia at the beginning of my cycle that after doing a water change I got NitrItes the next day. And then I did a small water change again the other day (I accidentally put in too much ammonia again) and a small reading of NitrAtes came.
I was thinking that maybe just the exchange of putting in new water is adding more oxygen to the system making the bacteria happier and working better. So I started today just taking the water out of the tank, and pouring it back in right away again, to hopefully still do that oxygen exchange.

Am I wrong in thinking this? Is it too excessive and isn't really doing anything?

Also am I doing ok with the rest of my stuff I'm doing for the cycle?

Lucy

Looks like you're doing ok.
Adding aeration should help also.
If it were my tank, I'd just let it ride and not add ammonia until the ammonia reading dropped to 0.
Being Nitrites are off the chart, you might want to consider a water change in a few days.

Elvishswimmer

Thanks Lucy!

Today I was getting frustrated.

My ammonia has been sitting at around 2 for 4 days. You would think that after happily eating up the ammonia before that it would continue to do so now. I wonder what has happened to the little guys?

I tested today and this is what I got:
Ammonia: around 2
nitrite: off the charts
nitrate: 10

So I did a water change, took out 15G (40%), filled with water treated with Prime. Then I retested and got this:
Ammonia: 1
Nitrite: off the charts
Nitrate: didn't test cause I don't think it really matters right now.

So in summary, I have A LOT of nitrites but the nitrite oxidizing bacteria are chomping away at it, and my ammonia oxidizing bacteria are doing something funny, cause they don't seem to be eating.

The last time I added ammonia was a week ago.
Does this still sound ok? I'm getting so anxious to get fishies!! Am I even close?

click

Those were my readings two days ago. Then my hubby told me to stop adding amonia, let it drop to zero and keep it to zero for 12 hrs. When I did my water test this morning, the nitrites were down to zero aswell. I added some amonia this morning to see what happens, by the time I got home from work, no trace of amonia or nitrites. He said I was producing too many nitrites and the bacteria could not keep up. He was right in my case, maybe that's your case too.

Elvishswimmer

Well, I have a dilemma and an update.

First the update.
My water paramerters are this:
Ammonia: under 0.25 but not quite 0
Nitrite: still off the charts
Nitrate: about 15

This is after a large water change Nov 9th. The nitrites were off the charts then and still off the charts.
I haven't added ammonia since Nov 4th.

What should I do? Should I give more ammonia to keep the ammonia oxidizers alive?
Should I do another large water change? The Nitrites has been off the charts since Nov 4th.

Ya, just wondering how my cycling has been coming along. It has been 4 weeks now, I'm getting antsy!

And the dilemma:

I've already picked out some fish that I'm going to be ordering from online. They are fancy goldfish, some with large tails.
I've been talking with fellow goldy lovers on another forum about how my tank should be, and I've decided for sure that I'm going to be removing the lava rocks, it seems that they commonly cause injuries for goldies. Also my piece of drift wood is quite spikey and no matter how I arrange it, I can't keep the sharp edges away.

So I'm going to be removing my driftwood and my lava rocks for my fishes safety (don't want cuts and torn fins and poked out eyes!). My worry is, what about the bacteria for the cycle?
Should I take it out now? Or should I wait until my cycle is complete and then remove it before I get my fish?

Any suggestions?

Elvishswimmer

Today I checked again.
Ammonia was still not quite zero, nitrites off the charts. Nitrates 20.

So I decided to do another waterchange, just cause my nitrites were still so high.

So I took out 15G (40%) again, and tested the ammonia and nitrite after, and the results didn't change (other than I think the ammonia was closer to zero.

What should I do? I have done 2 40% water changes this week, and my nitrites are STILL off the charts.

Should I do another one, only taking out 70% of the water? Should I just leave it for a while longer? I'm thinking that tonight i'm going to add a tiny amount of ammonia, just to keep the ammonia oxidizers alive.

I really want my nitrites down!

click

I know how you must feel. Just be patient. I had my temeperature in upper 80s. Can your heater go up a bit? It might speed the process.

Elvishswimmer

My heater is cranked up as high as it goes

click

If you would be next door I would give you a hand full of my substrate. ...you live in Markham ON by any chance?

Elvishswimmer

I wish
I live in Alberta.
None of my friends are fishkeepers either.
Oh well *sigh*
I'm just impatient. I'll keep waiting. I re-read your post and I will try 'starving' the ammonia bacteria overnight. Maybe I'll get a similar result as you.

I feel bad for disturbing my cycle by removing the decorations, but I think I'm going to do it now rather than later. Hopefully it'll be ok.

Elvishswimmer

Ok, I've done some research. Some Math. Some Chemistry. And I'm going at it in a new light.

After reading this post:
My First Fishless Cycle with pure Ammonia - Am I doing things correctly?

I'm going to try and follow those directions.

The thing with my ammonia oxidizers, is that they don't seem to be processing ammonia as fast as I think they should at this stage of the game.

I diluted my nitrite to figure out about where in the world the levels are right now. And according to my calculations my Nitrites are right now at 18ppm.

I dosed my ammonia back up to around 5ppm. I actually checked to see how much exactly how much ammonia is needed to be added to get it up to 5 PPM. I've just been kinda throwing some in before. So now I have it calculated.

Anyways this is my new game plan:
-I took out the sharp rocks and drift wood.
-I dosed the ammonia to 5ppm.
-I'm going to try checking ammonia twice a day, to see how the ammonia oxidizers are doing.
-I'm going to keep it dosed at 5ppm.
-After a week, I'm going to check how the nitrites are doing (using my dilution rule).
-Once I see where the nitrites are, I'm not going to do anything for at least 24 hours. I'll keep monitoring the nitrites and ammonia levels, but I won't be adding anymore ammonia.
-If both levels drop quickly then WOOHOO! If not, then I'll try it all over again.
-NO MORE WATER CHANGES! At least till it is done

Basically, I'm going to follow what calinb said in that post to a T.
Seeing as I already have a starting bacterial population, I'm hoping by following those directions I'll have a nice, large biological filter really soon!

I'll keep you guys updated to tell you how it goes!

click

Keeping my fingers crossed for you. Looking forward to hear good news

Elvishswimmer

Thanks! My fingers are crossed as well.
Well, it took 2 days for the ammonia level to drop from 4ppm to 2ppm. I put more ammonia in today.
I really wonder what happened. How could my ammonia bacteria been so good at turning it to nitrite before, and now is so slow. From the sounds of it, by 5 weeks with having both nitrites AND nitrates, my ammonia bacteria should be getting rid of it all within 12 hours.
Maybe it was me taking out those decorations, along with starving them a bit, or even I didn't treat some water well before putting it in.
Oh well, at least they are doing something! Hopefully they will grow quickly.

ETA: My nitrites are still high too, but I guess that is expected with adding more ammonia.

I put an advert on the Facebook market place for maybe some university students in the area that might have a disease-free tank to donate some gravel to me.

I really wish I could have got my fish shipped this week. It was 14C today! Ideal for shipping, probably one of the last warm days of the season. *sigh* I must keep patience. I'm hoping the fact that it was said it would take 4-6 weeks will mean for me that it will take 6 weeks, and not more.

Elvishswimmer

Well, I'm updating again.

I last added ammonia on the 17th. I pumped it up to ~5 or 6ppm.

It has since been 2 days. Yesterday it was around 4ppm, and today it was around 1.5.
So my ammonia bacteria are growing (back?) really quickly!

I'll keep a close eye on it now to see how long it takes to process ammonia i just put in.

I did another nitrite test. I put in 1 parts tank water to 3 parts tap water (no nitrites) and the nitrites are at least 5 if not higher, which I assume means that the nitrites are still over 20ppm.

I'll keep dosing ammonia till saturday/sunday and then leave it to see what happens, hopefully by then the ammonia will be processing within ~12 hours, and the nitrite levels will start dropping!

Elvishswimmer

I'm giving up... sorta.

I ordered TSS. I won't find out till tomorrow when it will arrive, as they ship them only on weekdays.

Today I was really frustrated. And figured that because my nitrites were so high, (off the charts even when I diluted it a lot) I did a large water change. I figured with them being so high, it might be impossible for my bacteria to ever catch up.

So I took out 30G of my 37G. Re-filled it with a trail pack of Tetra Aquasafe, and tested. Aquasafe says that it has a bio extract that helps promote good bacteria!

After the water change my nitrites were still high, but I finally got a readable reading when I diluted it!
My Ammonia was at .25ppm, so I put more in and it is at 2 now.
I had nitrates, but they were at 5ppm, this was before the water change, I assume it is lower now. (No nitrates in the tap water)
Nitrites are at 1ppm when I dilute it from 1 part tank water to 3 parts tap water.

So once I know when TSS will arrive, I'll order the fishes, and then tear down the tank.

I'll assume that some bacteria will still be alive on the decos/substrate/filter media after tearing down the tank. So with the TSS and the leftover bacteria from what is going on here, I will imagine that I will have a nice large biofilter for the large waste producers my goldfish will be.

Omgami

Wow, Elvishswimmer I really understand what you are going through. I'm trying to cycle my75g tank after setting it back up after 7 years and its so hard to wait. It seems like you are really trying everything you can think of. Please keep posting I'm pulling for you and your tank. I love fancy goldfish and as soon as I get this tank cycled I'm getting Orandas and Moors.

Elvishswimmer

Thanks Omgami.

I was mostly typing all this stuff out for me to vent on, nice to know the occasional person reads it!

It was so hard to wait at first. I'm slowly getting used to not having fish now, but now that it is getting close I excited again! I'm also excited to get nitrates so I can use the tank water from water changes for my houseplants. LOL

Hope your cycling goes quickly!!
I plant on getting 1 Ranchu, 1 Pearlscale and 1 Black Moor. I really love Ranchus and Moors so much! I was going to get an Oranda as well, but gave my boyfriend the option of picking and he decided he wanted a Pearlscale, so we are getting a pearlscale instead!

Elvishswimmer

2 days later and the ammonia went from 2 to 0.5 Looking good!
Brought it back up to 2 again. Can't check Nitrites now, but I'll check Nitrites and Nitrates tonight, and edit this post.

Edit:
I misjudge how much it takes to get to 2, haha, so I put more in.
My nitrites are still on the climb, not readable doing the dilution I do anymore. But my nitrates are back up to 5! Which is a great thing because I didn't think they would rise that quickly after an 80% water change!

Woohoo!

Lucy

It'g good to see your ammonia is dropping. Cycling is so frustrating. Hang in there.

Elvishswimmer

ANNNNNNDDDDDD another update!

Dear Friends, It is a happy day.

No, my cycle isn't finished yet, but my ammonia oxidizers are happy!

I posted yesterday that I bumped my ammonia up to ~2.
Today, it was at 0.25ppm!
Woohoo!

Nitrite is still high,
Nitrate is a little above 5, but not 10.
pH is 8.0

Since I took the driftwood out, the water has cleared up, the 80% waterchange probably did that, and the pH has jumped back up to tap water pH (was at 7.7 before). I'm sure my fish will do fine with that pH.

Oh, and I got confirmation that my TSS will arrive on the 30th!
Which means I can now order my fish! And my cycle may be finished by then, or it may not. I'm still going to add TSS because well, I payed big(ish) $$ for it to be shipped so I might as well use it, and a just in case my tank isn't quite prepared for 3 goldfish.
I might go out and buy another small water conditioner without ammonia detox, because I've heard that TSS doesn't do well with it. Because I'll need to do a large water change to get out extra nitrite that may be there before I put the fish in.

Added more ammonia right now, and now I can start to order my fish!

Lucy

It's looking pretty darn good!
You're right about the conditioner. If you use TSS, use one that doesn't detox ammonia.
This info might help:
Q & A With Tetra about Tetra SafeStart

Who knows, maybe by the time the TSS is delivered, your tank might be cycled and you can use it to start another tank.

Elvishswimmer

Thanks for that Lucy! Seems like great advice!

So I went to the fish store and purchased some food for the fish when I get them, and some different conditioner.

My results today indicate that my ammonia oxidizers eat up the ammonia in about 24 hours, but my nitrAtes haven't risen at all it seems. Still between 5 and 10.
And I imagine with the ammonia oxidizers going through it so quickly I'm probably piling up on the nitrite again, it seems to be really high.

I also at the store saw another bacteria supplement called Superbac, which looked REALLY convincing, and I've read good reviews of it on this site. And it is so much cheaper! So bummed that I spent $40 for TSS when Superbac is readily availabe for cheaper, but now I know I have a back up in case my TSS falls through for some reason or another.

I can only hope it will be cycled by the time my fish arrive, but it just isn't looking that way.

The TSS is expected to arrive on Monday, and then my fish are due to arrive on Friday!!

flyin-lowe

Don't be bummed out. The TSS is the only one that has a proven track record to work. i just used it last week and it worked great for me. I had been cycling a tank with fish for about 6 weeks. I think this helped as the tank had already started to cycle. I added it a week ago and then this past Friday I tested the water for the first time.0,0,10. I was a happy camper. I am hoping you have the same results. Add the TSS add the fish and leave the tank alone. It is a nice break to not be testing and changing water every day.
Good Luck

Elvishswimmer

If you ever thought your nitrite levels were high, look at mine!

I decided enough was enough with my nitrites. They were rediculously off the charts.

I basically dumped my tank. I took all the water out. I took all of it out, except for the small inch and a half or so in the gravel. I assumed it wasn't much because the gravel probably took up a lot of that space. I just shoved my siphon into the gravel and waited till it couldn't suck anymore.

So filled it up with all new water. Put in a small bit of ammonia (it was only slightly above zero before the change) waited 3 hours, and now tested again.
And guess what! I still have nitrites! They are between .50ppm and 1 ppm, and closer to the 1 than anything.

So yes, I did a 98% water change, and I still have a decent sized nitrite reading!

So as of right now:
Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: ~0.8ppm
Nitrate: Didn't bother testing, it was the same its been for the last 5 days before the water change. It's probably lower now.

I got my TSS today! I got the size to treat 70G, so it'll be great for my 37G
And my fish are due Friday.
I'm going to keep adding only small amounts of ammonia, and probably do a large water change on wednesday, and one a few hours before I get my fish on friday. To keep the nitrites low enough as to not shock the TSS bacteria, or shock my new fishes after their long journey across the pacific (they are from Hawaii).
I've been using the Tetra Aquasafe conditioner, to 'promote the bacteria' as it says, and also to make sure there is no Prime to interfere with the TSS.

ETA: Thanks flying-lowe!
Great to hear another success story. I'll be excited to see those lovely numbers for my water too!

click

Have you tested your tap water? There are cases where nitrites can be found in your tap water.

Melissawater

Our 60 gal is just about cycled with just a little bit of ammonia left and this Thursday it will be 7 weeks. A fishless cycle can take a long time, but after losing about 10 fish from not knowing about a cycle it is definately worth it! Good luck with your tank and I hope all goes well for you and your fishies, I know it's hard to wait