Craig-D

Fishless cycling is obsolete. There's no need to wait weeks to add fish anymore. Just use Tetra SafeStart (the updated replacement for Bio Spira that now doesn't require refrigeration). I cycled my fully stocked 12 gallon tank today, June 8th. I started the tank up with all my fish on Thursday June 4th. I just added the Safe Start and gravel and filter media from my other cycled tank. My readings are:

pH 7.4
0 ammonia
0 nitrites
5.0 nitrates.

prairielilly

Not everyone has access to Tetra SafeStart, or has another established tank from which to get gravel and filter media, so for them fishless cycling isn't obsolete.

There are also those who HAVE used TSS, and have not had as good an experience with it.

Craig-D

Everyone has access to the internet and SafeStart is easily found there. The reason it's so scarce in LFS is that they can't make it fast enough to meet demand. My seeding from the other tanks shortened the process a little I grant you - but even without seeding, SafeStart will cycle a tank in a week or less.

Those how have not had success with it used it improperly. Tetra was very clear on the phone about how to use it. You only use it with fish, not fishless with pure ammonia. You do not do water changes until you see nitrates. You also do not use ammonia detoxifying products like Prime with it. You also do not put just two fish in a 50 gallon tank to feed the bacteria and then complain it doesn't work. Everyone I read about who had a problem with it did one of these things. I followed their instructions and it worked flawlessly in 4 days. There was never a reading of ammonia or nitrites the whole process until I saw nitrates - just like they promised.

kimb

I have the internet, but I have only seen TSS in the states. They will not ship this product to Canada, without a special permit. Not everyone is comfortable ordering online, not everyone has credit card at their disposal for such purchases. I think everyone's experience is different. Just because it did not work for them, does not mean they necessarily did something wrong. When the product is shipped out, even overnight delivery, we have no way of knowing what the temps are in the facility (hot, cold) etc. Others could have issues with levels in their tap water. Glad you had such good results. New fishkeepers are overwhelmed with information in the beginning, and I think we should gently give them as many options as we can in the cycling, and care of a healthy aquarium

Lucy

So as not to further hi-jack the cycling with ammonia instructions thread, this discussion has been moved.

kimb

Thanks Lucy, didn't mean to hijack, I thought when I posted it was under another thread, and then it kind of disappeared...sorry

Lucy

No problem Kim, when you posted it was already separated from the other thread.

It's actually an interesting discussion.
Why some can and can't use TSS and choose a different method of fish less cycling.

Nate McFin

TSS isn't always succesful either. IMO Fishless is the best method to use if use have patience. It is guaranteed to work eventually and will have very established and stable colonies.

kimb

Agreed

prairielilly

As Kim said, just because you have the internet doesn't mean whatever is available on the internet is available to you - certain restrictions apply when shipping things over borders and even if they don't shipping costs can be prohibitive (I was told by DrsFS that it would cost me $60+ to ship a $6-7 bottle of Vitachem to me from Miami).

IMO you can't really say that 'Those how have not had success with [TSS] used it improperly' as you don't know the exact parameters in every person's aquarium - as in any chemical or biological system, there are a multitude of factors influencing the outcome, and many of them are somewhat or completely beyond our control. A significant diversion from 'ideal' of any one variable can mean success or failure of an experiment - which, in my opinion, cycling with TSS basically IS. If it weren't, it would have a 100% success rate, which it doesn't; and as Nate pointed out, fishless cycling DOES.

You are entitled to your opinion of course , but as Kim also said, we owe it to those new to the fishkeeping hobby to gently provide them with as many facts and options as possible, and support them in making informed decisions.

coffeebean

i vote for silent cycling with plants instead. much more satisfying

pepetj

Hi all:

In my experience with fishless cycle with ammonia solution from scratch (everything new) barely takes 2 weeks (if done carefully). If I plan ahead and seed a whole filter or considerable filter media, it's done in 4 or 5 days. So what's the hurry?

If one thing I love about fishkeeping is that it is an ongoing project for me. I would use TSS for emergencies if I had it available (the same can be said of the "wrong" type of bacteria: useful in emergencies, but that's another topic).

Thing is all the safe bacteria we need to keep our tanks stable is already for free in the air we breathe. Why pay for it? Besides TSS and alikes require fish to be added right away and that reduces considerably the otherwise plenty of time available for searching stocking options info carefully.

Of course this is just my opinion.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

Craig-D

You make valid points. I was unaware that SafeStart was unavailable outside the U.S. My bad. What I stated was not all my own opinions, some were Tetra's. They said they do not believe in fishless cycling because they would never recommend that someone purposefully contaminate their tank with ammonia. They also said if SafeStart fails, it is more than likely due to human error, not the product. Whatever a person's variables are with their water, bacteria is bacteria. If your tank can be cycled by any other means, then it can be cycled with SafeStart.

To each his own I guess. I personally would never have started this hobby if I had to sit there with an empty tank for two months pouring bottled ammonia into it. I needed instant gratification and I got it. People should do whatever works best for their specific situation. I've got a fully stocked tank cycled in 4 days since set it up. That's what works for me.

sirdarksol

I'm going to have to disagree (as have others) with the statement that fishless cycling is obsolete.
Tetra Safe Start is an awesome addition to the cycling toolbox, but there are numerous reasons that a person wouldn't use it:
1)They don't have access to it. Yes, you can order it over the internet, but depending on where you live, shipping may be prohibitive. Further, a child with no credit card has no easy way of acquiring it over the internet.
2)They don't want to spring for the cost. If patience can save you money, why not be patient?
3)Bad experience with Tetra Safe Start. Unless you know that you did something wrong, you'll likely shy away from a product that has failed you in the past, especially if it killed a number of fish.
4)They don't trust the ammonia spikes. I'm in this category. I don't like the fact that you pretty much have to ignore nitrogen spikes in the tank.
5)They're a purist. Maybe you just want to do things the old fashioned way and get a good feeling knowing that you made an effort and it worked.

The list goes on, I'm sure. These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Of course, my interest in this topic is largely theoretical, as I have plenty of seeded media spread out among my tanks that I can always start a new aquarium in seconds.

Leigh

[quote=Craig-D;611432]You make valid points. I was unaware that SafeStart was unavailable outside the U.S. My bad. What I stated was not all my own opinions, some were Tetra's. They said they do not believe in fishless cycling because they would never recommend that someone purposefully contaminate their tank with ammonia. They also said if SafeStart fails, it is more than likely due to human error, not the product. Whatever a person's variables are with their water, bacteria is bacteria. If your tank can be cycled by any other means, then it can be cycled with SafeStart.
[quote]

Of course they would say that, it's their product and they want you to buy it. According to them it's the ONLY way to cycle a tank. Just like according to Coke it's the only soft drink you should buy. But there are options out there and there are friendlier and wiser ways to share your opinions than barging in here and telling those people that chose to cycle fishless that they are wrong and crazy for doing it that way. I have found your posts harsh and very snarky. I'm glad it has worked for you but you can share your experiences in a nicer way.

Amanda

I don't believe that fishless cycling is obsolete, but I do think it someday will be due to new prodcuts like TSS. I personally have only raves for TSS, but it does have limited availability & is very pricey.

kimb

I hope Amanda is right and they improve the product, or come up with another one that is affordable, available and "mistake proof". The shelf life of TSS is so short, most LFS just can't afford to keep it on the shelves. We have come a long way from the days of throwing in some hardy fish and letting them do their thing. IMO, fishkeeping is an ongoing daily process. Although cycling can be frustrating, patience wearing, boreing, (the list goes on, and I know certain adjectives would be unacceptable) it is part of the process. A forum such as this allows us to express our opinions (and they are just that OUR OWN opinions) and most importantly learn from others. Looking forward to many more interesting discussions, and words of wisdom!

haedra

Honestly, if they want to do that, then they first have to improve the instructions on the bottle, and the viability of their employees.

My experience was like some others. It took 2 weeks, and ammonia sat at 1ppm for a good portion of that before it finally dropped.

I checked my bottle thoroughly, and it says NOTHING of not doing water tests, nor advises against using products like Prime or Amquel+. It also did not have a manufacturer's expiration date. I had a 30 gallon bottle for a 10 gallon tank. It also said nothing of dosing.

I had a lot of questions for Tetra when I used this product, and when I called them the answers I got were explicitly not the answers that Craig had gotten.

• They did NOT tell me not to use Amquel+, which I had informed them I was using to help with a nitrate problem in my tap water.

• They did NOT tell me not to test my water; and in fact, told me to CONTINUE to test, and that if they ammonia level reached 1.5ppm, then I should do a water change.

• They also told me that in their own tests of the product, that the hanging ammonia reading was fairly normal, and that they had the same experience; and that it would probably drop off by about the 2 week mark.

• They informed me to add the entire bottle to my tank, which I did, but it said that nowhere on the actual bottle.

• In three separate phone calls, I was told that my hanging ammonia was NOT due to being overstocked; even though I was told that in some other forums (I did not believe that though, I admit).

If Tetra wants their product to work as designed, they first and foremost need to get their facts straight within their own company. While what I have noted myself was information I was given in three separate phone calls, it is still not what some of you have been told.

I'm inclined to believe that there will ALWAYS be variable success of Safe Start, just like any cycling method. We've seen countless times that some people have more difficulty, and the cycling takes longer, even though they are doing things exactly the same as someone else. I'm not sure we can know exactly why this happens; but different water chemistry seems to play a part. There is just too much variability between water sources (low or high pH, soft or hard water, etc.) to attribute the different level of success to anything else.

prairielilly

From what I've read on this thread, even if TSS were available to me I would personally not use it. I'm not a patient person by any means, but what is IMO the unreliability and inconsistency I see with this product based on user experiences makes me that much more inclined to go with a tried and true method that has worked well for me in the past - flawlessly, in fact.

If you think fishless cycling 'takes two months' then I would contend you need to learn more about fishless cycling. In my last experience, it took eight days; the longest it has EVER taken me is three weeks. I would also contend that there is very little in the science of the fishkeeping hobby that lends toward 'instant gratification' - natural processes can only be rushed so much, and expecting instantaneous results from something that isn't instantaneous is only setting YOURSELF up for disappointment and frustration IMO. Good luck to you.

ABCDemily

I live in the UK. It doesn't exist here. Fishless cycling is not obsolete. I use existing and established media from my tank to seed all my others. It works within two weeks.

Angela_96

I honestly do not see how it is healthy to cycle a tank any other way than maturing it naturally. The less chemicals you ad the heatlhier for the fish, Declorinator is basicly it for me and if I didn't have to put that in I wouldn't.

ABCDemily

Agreed I noticed that chemicals were useless when I spent loads of my hard earned money on hair algae treatments that don't work. I lost my faith with them since then.

ray_sj

TSS is a great product when it works, but I totally agree with haedra's comment. If TSS gives us detailed directions and conditions under which their product works, it would improve their success rate. Instructions like "Put TSS in tank" leaves a lot of room for variability and failure!

Fishless cycling does not have a 100% success rate either, but it has to be WAY higher than TSS. Personally, I've tried both. If I had to do it again, I'd still go fishless.

Shawnie

as some know, im a HUGE TSS fan

prior to using ANY products, I always do research and EVERYONE should be doing so...ive used it with established media on an emergency basis for some nawty bettas that didnt get along and had to have a tank asap...it worked fabulous ....ive also used it from scratch and again, had 100% sucess rate...

I have also spent a ton of time with tetra thru emails and phone calls...I learned a few things along the way during research....it DOES say on the bottle to add the ENTIRE contents(dont use partial because you bought enough for a 75 gal tank and are only cycling a 10 gal)...read the back of the bottle and read #1,2,3 listed in green lettering...its bolder and a different color...those 3 are important .....it also states to "condition water with aquasafe conditioner" in the directions below.. ...this product has been designed to be used with the tetra brand conditioner ....if you choose to use another conditioner(which is your right) IMO you arent following the directions and you could be compromising its effectiveness...

I dont agree with the OP that fishless is obsolete and it never will be...it maybe in the OP's mind as its evident patience isnt a virtue..and its like that for alot of people otherwise we wouldnt have most of the fish issues we do have(mine included when I first became a member) ....

I also agree that alot of errors when using TSS , are human errors..as well as im sure a product error..but the sucess/failure if used properly, in my experience, has been mainly human errors for failure...again, it falls back on research for a product and what the tank should be prior to adding anything.... ive found that if your ph isnt 6.8 or above, the TSS will take longer as ammonium doesnt feed the bacteria as ammonia does....ive found out that ANY medications or ammonia detoxifiers will not let TSS work properly.....theres a big list of why it can fail, and im sure theres a list of why it shouldnt be used as well...

is it right for EVERYONE ? NOPE
is it wrong for EVERYONE? Heck NO
everyone has a responsibility to themselves and especially their fish babies to do their homework and not always look for a quick fix in this hobby...and again, cycling fishless will NEVER be obsolete unless you truely dont care and just are looking for that instant success

haedra

The only point of contention I have with doing research, is if the parent company can't even agree amongst themselves what is proper, then who are you to trust?

While some of you have been told by tetra not to use products like Amquel+ and Prime, I was not informed to avoid them in three separate phone calls, even though they knew I was using it. And while it might recommend on the bottle to use their own brand of conditioner, I see many other products (not all having to do with aquariums) suggesting the use of lateral products of the same company, but many times this is a marketing ploy to sell more of their own things. I am not saying that is the case here, but it is a fairly common occurrence for a company to promote more of their own products with the purchase of only one. If they want to make it clear that you cannot use detoxifying conditioners, then they need to reword that statement.

I'm still not sure I understand why Amquel+ or Prime would remotely interfere with Safe Start. Because I personally use Amquel+, I contacted the manufacturer of it directly (Kordon) and asked outright if this product would interfere with not only the biological filter, but also plant nutrients, as I had initially purchased it to help deal with a high nitrate reading in my tap water. I was informed by them that the product did not change the molecular structure enough for either plants or bacteria to be unable to process ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. If all TSS is, is the proper nitrifying bacteria in distilled water, and is no different than what currently lives in our cycled aquariums, then why would Prime or Amqel+ affect this any differently? If Amquel+ interfered with biological filtration, wouldn't we end up crashing our cycles with every water change? I've been using Amquel+ since February, and only experienced one mini cycle, when my tank was newly cycled and I added a snail.

So someone is wrong in this case, and it's either Tetra or Kordon; and as in what happened in my case, even amongst the Tetra help line employees.

Shawnie

Hence why doing your own research, tests, and lots of reading is important...I trusted my tests and the weeks of reading just about everything about it

they recommend their own product because they know what the ingredients are and the compromise it can give to the TSS...although I DO AGREE that most companies do the recommendation on better sales and not the better for the situation...they dont have the room to list the things that wont work with the product, but the line that says to condition the tank with aqauasafe, lets me know that at least that product is ok...

IMO the TSS works so fast and is so concentrated with high live bacteria, that the use of any detoxifier(which aquasafe is not and just conditions the chlorine and chlorimines not ammonia) will inhibit and slow down the rate in which the bacteria does its job to process things and cycle the tank...I dont think amquel or prime interfere with the cycle process, as it keeps our fish babies safe..it will take longer using those products as it will interfere with live bacterias ability to feed itself and cycle within that 7 days time that tss does...it lessons the concentration of the bacteria by neutralize the ammonia and making the food less to feed on...

Alot of employees of different companies are trained on sales I think before trained on specifics of different products...I called, out of curiosity, tetra for 5 days at different times each day and got a different response from each employee...that is always going to be the case and where our own research and homework needs to come into play

haedra

This is the part though, that confuses me the most. Kordon told me specifically that it did NOT in fact ever remove, or neutralize any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate; and for that reason it did not interfere at all.

Honestly, I'm not sure I understand how a chemical can change the molecular structure of ammonia enough so that it can both be available as "bacteria food," while at the same time also be safe for fish living in it. But that is what Kordon told me, and is what is also listed in an exhorbitant amount of detail on their website.

Given how many times you have used Safe Start Shawnie, I trust your results more than anything Kordon or Tetra can tell me. But someone just coming into fish keeping should be able to have some faith in the company that sells their own product, to provide complete and accurate information. I was lucky when I went through this, as I was already familiar with fishlore to a degree so I trusted information (and still do of course I found here. But anyone else who is not might be likely to take what they read on the internet with a grain of salt, as this is usually a wise course of action. For that reason; when TSS fails, I leave that responsibility completely in the lap of the manufacturers. I am willing to bet that with solid, accurate, consistent information across the board on their part, that our poll that was listed might be more at 100% success rate.

prairielilly

I must respectfully disagree. TSS is a concentrated source of nitrifying bacteria, which would mean that the reason it works so quickly is because its users are skipping the step of waiting for the bacteria population to multiply to a point that they can deal with the biological load of the tank. From veterinary tech-school microbiology class I remember that depending on the bacteria species, the doubling rate can vary tremendously. I don't know what the doubling rate is for the desirable bacteria in our biofilters, but adding a large amount of them all at once will bypass that; adding seeded media does the exact same thing IMO, which is why we can take media from an established tank and 'instantly' cycle a tank (as sirdarksol said).

I may be misinterpreting this, but I read your above comment as 'ammonia detoxifiers will slow down the rate at which the bacteria process ammonia' followed by 'prime and amquel+ [ammonia detoxifiers] do not inhibit the cycle process' which to me is contradictory - please clarify. IMO the ammonia detoxifiers change the ammonia into a less toxic form that is still utilizable by the biological filter, yet is nontoxic to fish as Haedra said (and as is stated on the directions on the Prime bottle). It's only effective for 24h I thought bc the original chemical reaction that renders the ammonia nontoxic uses up the active ingredients, and as the fish produce more ammonia there isn't anything left to neutralize that new ammonia.

Shawnie

Im by no means a chemist, biology major nor do I know 1/4 of anything scientific(barely passed science)...none of that ever interested me and I just never understood it anyhoo....but, TSS according to their emails, representitives, and other sites ive read, say "When added, SafeStart is claimed to keep nitrite 10 times lower and ammonia 14 times lower than other bacterial cultures on the market. This is said to virtually eliminate the ammonia and nitrite spikes that commonly occur in maturing aquariums, which means that fish can be stocked much earlier" "Tetra says that it has spent years researching SafeStart, and has based the product on Nitrospira bacteria, rather than the usual Nitrobacter seen in most competing products" (ive read the differences in the two but only since ive been interested in the make up of TSS) theres a big difference in them .....

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.u...m.php?news=953


If your food source is cut down, you will grow more slowly than if you had a full meal at each feeding...the detoxifiers still allowed a food source, but at a much much slower rate than without it...ive used TSS on a 5 gal tank with a betta and used prime daily with it...no water changes were done tho...at the same time, I used TSS on a 5 gal tank without anything but the fresh water and a betta no water changes on this one either....both were started fresh from no seeded material (thanks to nawty betta's not getting along) and the tank without prime, cycled in 6 days....the tank with prime, cycled in 13 days...so the fact that you detox ammonia and make it safe for the fish , is great!! but, the prime lessoned the strength or cut out some of the food source somehow (again im not scientific) because that was the only difference in both tanks....so, explain to me the reason for this as I didnt do well in science and never took any classes to co inside with anything scientific and only speak from what ive done in my own tanks....

whether people think TSS works or doesnt work, is an opinion that we all have had and I think its great everyone can speak about it and decide on their own..the same with cycle, stress zyme, etc...we learned a hard lesson lately on stress coat+ from following others advice and again im going to say research, homework, and taking the time to learn about the product is a must....ive spent alot of time with TSS and I wish I knew how to word things "scientifically" so that it makes more sense, but im a simple gal who doesnt know big words I trust it, ive used it many many times in many different ways, and im going to stand by it....I will say tho, FISHLESS CYCLING IS NOT OBSOLETE

kimb

Shawnie, don't knock your "non-scientific" approach Most people approach this with no experience, no knowledge, huge enthusiasm and sadly sick or dead fish. I feel experience is what counts most of the time! 6 days 13 days, 30 days (or more in my case) no matter how long it takes to cycle, that fact that we do is most important. Next time you are talking to Tetra ask them to start sending to Canada...I'd be their first customer!