eepruls

Greetings,

I am at a total loss and I desperately need some help. I have been searching and researching as to why I'm having fishless cycling problems and cannot find any answers or possible reasons as to why nothing seems to be happening in my tank.

First off, I've cycled before. I used household ammonia and within one week I had nitrItes. After two more weeks I had nitrAtes and my tank was cycled. It was easy and actually pretty fun. That was a little over a year ago.

In March I tried cycling my 10 gallon tank and wasn't ever able to get ammonia to drop. I tore it down since nothing was happening anyways and decided it would be a good time to upgrade to a new 20 gallon tank. I started a fishless cycle in it on April 13, 2009 and have not seen ANY change in water parameters (that's over 4 weeks!). That is, ammonia has been at 4ppm while nitrItes and nitrAtes are at 0ppm. Everyone I know keeps asking how my water is coming along and I tell them that it's not! I'm getting very frustrated because in my view, the tank should be cycled. Below is a list of what I've done:

1. Water was dechlorinated with Aqua Plus.
2. AquaClear 50 filter is on full speed and there is a drop creating a waterfall with lots of bubbles.
3. Filter has two bags of bio-stones and one and a half foam inserts.
3. Lights are off.
4. Heater is on at 28C.
5. Used pure ammonia (just Ammonium Hydroxide and Water - no soaps or anything) at 4ppm. This is the same ammonia jug I used last year to cycle and had no problem.
6. No live plants.
7. Gravel was new and rinsed before setting up tank. Fake plants added.
8. pH is 7.6 (same as my tap water).
9. API test kits (Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) are from end of 2007.
10. I don't know anyone with an established tank so I'm not able to get gravel from someone else. But even if I could I want to understand why I can't cycle for some reason.

By all accounts and purposes my tank should cycle but something is wrong. Nobody can tell me what it is nor can I find anything that would explain this. Frankly, I'm getting very frustrated because I don't know what to do. I'm not a total newbie; I've cycled before and I understand the process and what should be going on. It's one thing if it was just slow but I can't seem to get things going. Why aren't Nitrosomas reproducing in my tank with ammonia at 4ppm? Is there something else that could be causing an issue - KH, phosphate, CO2, etc.?

I would appreciate ANY help anyone can offer.

aquarist48

Ammonia instructions for a fishless cycle
Check out the above link and see if it's any help to you. Too, what is the pH level in your tank? If it is 6.0 or less the ammonia is turning into ammonium and not giving the good bacteria anything to feed from. Good luck and hang in there. It will happen.

Lucy

Wow, eepruls, you're post is almost and exact mirror of another members thread not too long ago.
Same thing happened to him. He had cycled fish less using the same ammonia a year ago, then nothing happening this time around.

If I can find it, I'll post the link (or maybe he'll see this)
I found it baffling.

ray_sj

I had a similar experience the first time I tried to fishless cycle. In my case, I suspect that I overdosed the ammonia. It's hard for me to tell the difference between 4 and 8ppm on the color chart.

You might consider doing a water change to get the ammonia level down to 2ppm and see if the cycle gets going then. You can even complete the cycle with this ammonia level, IF you are not planning to fully stock the tank immediately.

prairielilly

I don't know what the shelf life is on household ammonia, but since I really can't see anything you've done out of the ordinary I wonder if it's that. Maybe something's contaminated/spoiled it? don't know if that's possible, but sure looks to me like you're doing everything right...

Another thought: is there ANY possibility that there's any bleach/chlorine in the tank? are any of the plants, decor etc from your previous tank, may have been exposed to bleach? it doesn't take a very high concentration to kill bacteria, you wouldn't be able to smell it.

What I'd do is change out 100% of the water, re-rinse the gravel, plants et. and double-dechlorinate absolutely everything. Then I'd start fresh, but this time use a piece of shrimp instead of the ammonia.

Kinda sucks, but next time's a charm? Good luck!

eepruls

I think you're referring to my thread! I had this same issue with my 10 gallon and I had a long thread going at that time about why my cycle this year is unsuccessful when my cycle last year (with everything the same) being successful. At the end of that thread I had said that I was getting a 20 gallon and taking down the 10 gallon to start fresh. Fast forward a month to now and I'm experiencing the same thing with the 20 gallon - ammonia won't drop. The 20 gallon has a new filter, new gravel, new water, etc. so I'm super confused and frustrated. I decided to start a new thread that would focus on things to watch out for when doing a cycle. Hopefully we can figure out a successful solution. But the same issue with both tanks?

I am going to remove most of the water tonight and add a shrimp instead of the household ammonia. I've never done this so it will be new to me. From what I've read, household ammonia doesn't get old and it can be used for many years for cycling. And it worked before and raises ammonia levels in the tank. But I am going to try this shrimp thing people mention. I don't know what else to do. I really would like to figure out what is wrong so that others having this issue have something else to try. I mean, when you follow the instructions of a fishless cycle and research it all over the Internet and it's still not working, something is being missed.

aquarist48, the pH is 7.6 as listed as number 8 in my list. Apparently Nitrosomas should like that.

ray_sj

I just remembered something else.. You don't have super soft water (low GH/KH) do you? I've read that some hardness in the water is needed for the cycle also. I have very hard water, so it wasn't an issue for me..

eepruls

I have indeed read that some hardness is needed and that low GH/KH can contribute to ammonia not dropping. I checked Winnipeg's water supply and our total hardness is about 80ppm. Here is a link to the City of Winnipeg website with details about our water parameters like pH, alkalinity, temperature, bacterial content, hardness, phosphorus, etc. http://www.winnipeg.ca/WaterAndWaste...s/Winnipeg.stm. Maybe there's something there that could be a problem? I think 80ppm is good for hardness is it not?

I tested ammonia again tonight and like usual it's mid-green (4ppm). I've had a bacteria bloom where the water goes all cloudy and there's some little hair algae here and there. If I can get a bacterial bloom and have super cloudy water after one week in, why can't the bacteria that eat ammonia reproduce? Ahhhhhh. I could literally punch the wall I'm so frustrated.

ray_sj

It looks like the hardness is only an issue if you have acidic water as well. You can have a look at Considerations in Fishless Cycling if you haven't seen it already. Your KH may be a little low, but since your water is neutral, I would think that it would be ok...

Sounds like you've done a lot of research and have done everything correctly! You might also consider raising the temp further to 30C and adding an airstone. Those seemed to help me. Personally, I'd get the ammonia down to 2ppm, and wait a week to see if it drops.

Lucy

Too funny. Thanks for the reminder.

Sorry you're having problems again.
Def. keep us posted about how you do with the shrimp.

eepruls

Just thought I would continue updating this thread. Last week I did a 75% water change with new fresh dechlorinated water. I also took out two ornaments I had inside the tank just in case (I'm willing to try anything!). The ammonia level is now 1.5ppm. I again have cloudy water (bacterial bloom) just like when you first start. You'd think that would be a good sign because it means bacteria in the water. But that happened last time too and no Nitrosomans ended up reproducing. I put a raw shrimp inside yesterday (squeezed off the tail first). Who knows, maybe something actually dying will jump start things. I'll keep you posted.

harpua2002

The shrimp method has always worked for me. It's definitely nastier than pure ammonia though, once it gets going. If you haven't already, I'd suggest putting the shrimp in a filter bag or a new nylon stocking. It will be much easier to remove later!

eepruls

Good to know. I've never done the shrimp method. Pure ammonia is easier to control but I will do anything at this point. Is one shrimp enough for a 20 gallon? I'll see if I can get something to put it in. What about a ziploc bag with holes in it if I can't find anything? I don't think my mom will give me a piece of new nylons to use!

prairielilly

do you still have any of those mesh bags that came with the aquaclear biomax inserts? I find they're always ridiculously too big; I cut the ends off. You could use that (just wrap around a few times and tie some dental floss around it, leave the end hanging out the tank). It would allow for better water flow than the plastic of a ziploc (and your mom won't mind ).

I haven't personally used shrimp, but IMO one is PLENTY (I've heard they get a tad...ripe)

eepruls

What do you use then? I thought you used shrimp as well. I'm going to give it a try because the Safeway pure ammonia (just water and ammonium hydroxide) just ain't doing anything this time so I have to do something different. Right now the shrimp is just sitting on the bottom. I don't have any of the mesh bag from the aquaclear insert. I'm not sure what I should use before it breaks up into pieces everywhere.

prairielilly

buy a hairnet at the dollar store? hmmm... mesh bags from onions, oranges...

I use ammonia bought from Sobey's, their house brand. I think I paid $3 for a 1.89 L jug. I then bought a 'flavour injector' for like a buck, meant for squirting broth into turkeys (read: plastic syringe) that is really accurate in allowing me to measure out exactly how many mL's of ammonia I want. (I calculated out how many mL's I would need for so many PPM )

It's worked well for me so far, but if I were trying to cycle a tank with the same stuff and it wasn't working, I'd suspect something had gone 'bad' with it. That's why I thought you couldn't go wrong with a piece of shrimp - I guess nothing will emulate the ammonia of rotting fish, quite like rotting fish

harpua2002

I cycled a 15 gallon marine tank once in about 2 weeks with just one shrimp. I'm not sure how this timeline translates to FW, but it will definitely work eventually. The Aquaclear media bag would work I guess, but the holes might be kinda big. Trust me, when it comes time to pull it out of the tank, it's grooooosssssssss! Nylons are cheap, I think I got mine for like $1.50 or something.

eepruls

I cut off a piece of a potato bag which was hard orange plastic. I took the shrimp out of the tank which has been in there for a few days now and it's starting to stink. I wrapped the mesh around it and tied it with a twist tie. Then I dropped it back in and it's sitting on the bottom. The water in the tank is really cloudy, just like when you start a tank. I attribute that to the large water change I did. I sure hope this works because I haven't had any fish since March 1!

prairielilly

I hope so too! Good luck

Make sure there's no metal on the twist tie exposed to the water (may rust).

eepruls

Awesome news people! After exactly one week after I put the shrimp inside the tank, I GOT A NITRITE READING!

I couldn't believe it when the colour changed from light blue to purple. I'm a little overly excited but do you know how many tests I've done without a change? It's been over 2.5 months that I've been trying and trying without any luck. To be honest, I was getting close to giving up because I was at a total loss and I can't have an empty tank forever. I did another full set of tests today and Ammonia is at 3ppm, nitrIte is at 0.5ppm, and nitrAtes at 0ppm.

I wanted to discuss these results and address what others suggested as possible problems so that others in the future will not be hitting their head against the wall like I was. The issue wasn't too much chlorine in the water or on the ornaments/plants after a bleaching. If you rinse everything well and use dechlorinator, it shouldn't cause a problem with your cycle not starting. You should know if you haven't rinsed it enough. No need to go crazy in my opinion since you're filling the tank with a whole bunch of fresh, clean water anyways.

The issue also wasn't a lack of oxygen. If your HOB filter drops water back into the tank with a waterfall, and you can see bubbles in the water, you'll be fine.

This brings me to my pure ammonia source (Safeway brand). I don't think there was anything wrong with the ammonia or that it had gone bad (if that is even possible since it's just water and ammonium hydroxide). When I did the last water change a week and a half ago, I removed 75% of the water and the ammonia was at 1.5ppm. That ammonia was from the ammonia bottle (i.e. I never removed everything and started from scratch with 0ppm). Then I added the shrimp which slowly raised it to 2-3ppm. I didn't even modify the filter or anything else.

The shrimp seems to have provided a naturally decaying object that somehow caused the nitrogen cycle to start and for nature to take its course. I don't think Nitrosomas would only eat the shrimp ammonia and not the 1.5ppm ammonia from the bottle! Since Nitrosomas eats ammonia, why did a decaying shrimp start them eating when there was already ammonia inside? And why was I able to cycle last year with just the bottle of ammonia but needed an actual decaying organism this year to get things going? What else did the decaying shrimp provide that my tank was missing this year?

I'm going to use a shrimp all the time now. Do I just leave the shrimp inside until the cycle is done and ammonia and nitrIte are gone? I guess I don't have to keep feeding the tank like I would with the bottle of ammonia.

Anyways, I'm finally on my way which is exciting. I've learned a lot! One more thing, you'll get a kick out of the fact that I made breaded shrimp for dinner today as a celebration! I did!

prairielilly

Awesome news! that's really great that it finally got going - I bet after 2 1/2 months that's pretty sweet! Definitely leave the shrimp in your tank until you're ready for fish - it will get nasty, but if there isn't a constant input of ammonia the bacterial colony you've just established will begin to die off and you'd be back to square one, you don't want that!

I don't know why it worked with the shrimp and not with the liquid. Lots of people have used liquid ammonia as you yourself have, and from your ppm readings it's not like the amount was too low. Kinda crazy But at least you're finally on your way!

eepruls

Just another update! It's now been two weeks since I put the shrimp inside and one week since I first saw nitrItes. It'll probably be one more week before nitrItes disappear (one week for ammonia, two weeks for nitrItes). Right now I've got 0ppm Ammonia which shows you that there was never anything wrong with the household ammonia I was using. NitrItes are like 3-5ppm (it's difficult to figure out the purple colour on the test kit). I assume the shrimp is still producing ammonia but Nitrosomas is fixing it before it can build up.

Lucy

I'm really glad thing are finally moving along for you.
Geez, how frustrating.

eepruls

To add insult to injury, my heater will no longer go below 28C! LOL. I have the best of luck don't I?! It'll stay at that temp for a few days and then I'll walk by and see that the thermometer is at 35C! Not good for fish when I get them. So, last Thursday I took YOUR advice from other threads I've read and bought a 100W Visi-Therm Stealth from Big Al's Online Canada. I've heard nothing but good things about them and I couldn't find them in any store here. It arrived yesterday (Tuesday) which is awesome (remember when stuff was like 4-6 weeks?). I'm gonna put it in today.

So now I've got a working filter that's quietened down, a heater that can hold the temperature, and water that is actually cycling. Since stuff is happening though, all is good!

Lucy

Sounds good. lol, yeah, I like my heaters.

eepruls

I put the stealth heater in the tank. I've never used a submersible so I find it VERY weird to have the actual unit inside the tank with an electrical cord coming out (I've got a drip loop of course but still). Even my dad didn't believe me that the entire thing is supposed to go into the tank. I'm kind of nervous that the electrical outlet is connected directly to water! And without a light I wasn't sure if it was on. I've had a lot of problems with heaters in the past so I'm always worried!

I wanted to ask you how to read the temperature setting dial. It's in Fahrenheit (I thought ordering from a Canadian retailer would be in Celsius but that's another story). On the dial there is like a line, then a number (79), then another line, then another number (82), etc. Do you set the pointer on the dial to the number or the line? If you set it to the line between 79 and 82, does that mean it's like 80.5? Right now I've got the dial to 82 and the thermometer reads 84 (28C). I just wasn't sure.

Anyways, my cycle should be ending soon as I've got no ammonia, but nitrItes. I'm excited!

prairielilly

I set my stealth's dial slightly below the 79, which keeps the tank around 77-78 according to the thermometer (which also has a Celsius scale). The Stealths are made by Marineland which is (I believe) an American retailer, so their products will likely be made with Imperial/Fahrenheit scales, regardless of where they are sold.

After using the Stealth for a short while I found it to be extremely reliable (kept the tank at a very consistant temperature) so I stopped worrying about whether or not it was on...

eepruls

Just another update. I'm still waiting for nitrItes to drop. It's taking a little longer this time (it's been 2.5 weeks since I first saw them). What's encouraging is that I do have 5ppm of nitrAtes so obviously the nitrItes are being fixed. Hopefully they go to 0 soon!

Lucy

Sorry missed your question about the heater.
I'm glad things are progressing for you!

eepruls

I now have a cycled tank!

So, to sum up, after I put the shrimp inside, it was one week before I saw nitrItes and three weeks after that before they disappeared for a total cycle time of 4 weeks.

Anyways, I am about to remove the shrimp and do a good water change. It's perfect timing because LFS has 50% fish on Tuesdays. I'm starting with 6 Bloodfin Tetras because I really like them and they're a good fish to start with. And as a bonus, they're one of the cheaper ones to begin with.

Lastly, before I forget, I want to thank all of you who provided help and insight during my cycling problems. Believe it or not, but I have now been without fish since February! It was you people who suggested the shrimp which worked and I've learned a lot. I appreciate it! This is a terrific forum with wonderful people!