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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Just Curious
I read somewhere that if you had the right plants and residents in your tank, the nitrate level can be kept very low therefore minimizing water changes, or reducing the amount of water change?
If so, is there a way of working out how much water change is required based on the nitrate reading?
If nitrate = 0.00, ( probably impossible ) in theory no water change is required?
I would assume that you would need a heavily planted tank with nutrient sucking species, and not to overstock with fish. | 
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifesabeach  I read somewhere that if you had the right plants and residents in your tank, the nitrate level can be kept very low therefore minimizing water changes, or reducing the amount of water change?
If so, is there a way of working out how much water change is required based on the nitrate reading?
If nitrate = 0.00, ( probably impossible ) in theory no water change is required?
I would assume that you would need a heavily planted tank with nutrient sucking species, and not to overstock with fish. | GREAT question ..one I was also wondering myself...as this week was my water change schedule ..and I saw a ton of poo from my plec and others at the bottom of the tank...but my nitrates were 5..I dont have a planted tank tho...just understocked....but I did a small 20% change anyhow and the water was actually very yucky when vacuuming...I thought my test kit was bad but its new....ill be wondering what others think about it... | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| MHO...if you have fish in the tank, you need water changes period. Certain elements, minerals in water dissipate over time and have to be replenished. Too, the filter has to be maintained properly.  | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarist48 MHO...if you have fish in the tank, you need water changes period. Certain elements, minerals in water dissipate over time and have to be replenished. Too, the filter has to be maintained properly. | I deffinately agree water changes are always needed....I think the question was how much if the nitrates were low? and I go about 2.5 weeks before I do water changes because my nitrates are so low... | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Moderator
| Oh, I see.  I like to change a little more than 1/3 of my tank within a 30 day period. I've just always done that and I'm sure I always will as long as I can. I break it down to 25g's of fresh water every 10 days. It keeps my readings where they need to be, my fish happy and it's a lot easier than doing it all at once (as you know) 
To me, doing changes strictly by Nitrate readings would just be too risky. Looking forward to reading more comments too. | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| I found this site which advises that water changes are not enough to keep nitrate levels down, but only reduces the rate of increase, which if true is a little disturbing. http://www.fishyou.com/fish-nitrates-water.php
It is recommending the use of a denitator to actually do the job of reducing the overall amount. So the same theory would apply to any other buildups - that is that partial water changes will only slow down the buildup.
Additional intervention is required to actually convert or cut down total quantity of impurities. | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| I guess this is where reverse osmosis works well, but then the water is too pure and you have to start adding minerals etc? | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Maybe I'm not understanding the question...
You're asking how you know when it's time to change your water based on a Nitrate reading correct? I'm pretty sure that you're not going to get a concrete answer in regards to that. For a couple of reasons.
1) Every tank is going to have a different reading based on stocking, plant density, etc. For example most of my tanks do actually have a 0ppm Nitrate reading when fully cycled just b/c I plant heavily. So in theory that would indicate that I never need to change my water? In theory I suppose but between the betta and the massive snail population (I gut back on feeding they just eat my plants  )by the two week mark the gravel is getting really really gross. And even a 50% WC can't get all the gunk. Which leads to the second reason.
2) Everyone has different standards. When is a nitrate reading to high? When is water too old? When is it time to clean? Nitrate isn't toxic till 20ppm. So theoretically you don't need to WC till around 15ppm. Adding fresh water does more then just dilute the polutants (nitrate) in the tank back down again it renews the mineral content and all the other goodies dissolved in the water that the tank removes. Tanks are a closed system which means that what goes in stays in except if you're talking plants they take up minerals and nutrients but they don't give them back till they die... and in a healthy tank that can take awhile.
3) Evaporation. I have a major evaporation problem (dry prairrie air) so I have to top up my tanks all at least once a week. When water evaporates it leaves all it's minerals and stuff behind. Since I don't have RO the dissolved stuff in the water continues to accumulate in the tank as I top it up. The only way to correct that is to do a water change. In that case then you'd be going by your KH values instead of Nitrate.
I'll read that link first then comment on the last two posts since I don'e quite get what you're saying...
I hope that so far what I'm telling you is making sense. | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| OK skimmed the article (got what he was saying without the numbers *which is really good since I'm barely awake*)...
What other build ups would you be referring to? Other dissolved solids? Those are usually pretty consistant in your water supply i believe so adding in and taking out should be roughly equal each time. Ideally you'd be topping evap water up with RO and doing WC with tap water (unless you need a specific GH or KH).
Also I don't believe he ever cassified what "high" nitrates were. (yes yes WC's are only delaying the inevitable but if anything under 20ppm is fine then provided you keep it under 20ppm with WC's where is the problem?)
... so... basically all he's telling you is that you need plants (way easier then chemicals or trying to mess with anarobic bacteria to convert Nitrate in to atmos Nitrogen (N2))
P.S. - I appologise for any tone that you pick up in my posts and if my rambling is confusing. I either need more coffee or more sleep... | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Red1313 Maybe I'm not understanding the question...
You're asking how you know when it's time to change your water based on a Nitrate reading correct? I'm pretty sure that you're not going to get a concrete answer in regards to that. For a couple of reasons.
1) Every tank is going to have a different reading based on stocking, plant density, etc. For example most of my tanks do actually have a 0ppm Nitrate reading when fully cycled just b/c I plant heavily. So in theory that would indicate that I never need to change my water? In theory I suppose but between the betta and the massive snail population (I gut back on feeding they just eat my plants )by the two week mark the gravel is getting really really gross. And even a 50% WC can't get all the gunk. Which leads to the second reason.
2) Everyone has different standards. When is a nitrate reading to high? When is water too old? When is it time to clean? Nitrate isn't toxic till 20ppm. So theoretically you don't need to WC till around 15ppm. Adding fresh water does more then just dilute the polutants (nitrate) in the tank back down again it renews the mineral content and all the other goodies dissolved in the water that the tank removes. Tanks are a closed system which means that what goes in stays in except if you're talking plants they take up minerals and nutrients but they don't give them back till they die... and in a healthy tank that can take awhile.
3) Evaporation. I have a major evaporation problem (dry prairrie air) so I have to top up my tanks all at least once a week. When water evaporates it leaves all it's minerals and stuff behind. Since I don't have RO the dissolved stuff in the water continues to accumulate in the tank as I top it up. The only way to correct that is to do a water change. In that case then you'd be going by your KH values instead of Nitrate.
I'll read that link first then comment on the last two posts since I don'e quite get what you're saying...
I hope that so far what I'm telling you is making sense. | Don't get me wrong...I have every intention of making water changes, and I understand there are other issues that come into play other than nitrates. I replace 15% of my 60 litre tank weekly and my fish appreciate it!
The question was a bit too simplistic. There is probably no effective way to calculate how much change should be made, but to go by the generally accepted methods from other peoples' experiences and from testing.
I'm trying to put in place plants and fish/crustacean combinations that would help control the environment they are in rather than jump in and create havoc for them and myself. | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| ah... sorry my bad then 
I think we're both miss understanding each other. rofl
I never got the impression that you were trying to get out of water changes sorry if it sounded that way I didn't mean it to .
What you might want to check out is "ecology of the planted aquarium" by Diana Walstad. From what I hear she is very through in explaining how everything interacts to create el natural aquarium. So you might find the answers your looking for there (or at least) help get pointed in the right direction.
Good luck
sorry if I sounded grumpy | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifesabeach |  if that was a true statement, then how come when you change 50% of your water, you have 50% less nitrates than before the change? (which I know is true unless you have nitrates in your water source) .... | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Addict
| Often heavily planted tanks will need to add nitrAtes, because they are consumed by the plants.
I've read that partial water changes are necessary because of buildups of pheromones.
Also, there is a reaction of KH being used up and the pH dropping and becoming unstable with reduced/less frequent water changes.
So keeping an eye on the KH as well might be an indicator for water changes.
Personal opinions:
There are certain minerals replaced with water changes that are used by the fish and plants.
It's a good opportunity to do a good poo vac.
Regular (weekly) partial (25-30%) water changes are important to keep the tank water stable and healthy.
It's better for me to be on a weekly routine to do partial water changes.
I definately see a postitive reaction from my fish during, and after, a water change. I actually think they enjoy it.
There is a certain interaction with the fish when I get in there and "straighten" things up.
RO water definately needs "reconstituted" before use. A product called RO Right is a good one.
hth,
alicem | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Keeper
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawnie if that was a true statement, then how come when you change 50% of your water, you have 50% less nitrates than before the change? (which I know is true unless you have nitrates in your water source) .... | I'm confused by it too. The way it is explained makes sense mathematically, but if it was true, everyone with a tank would be complaining be having trouble over time. | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| the whole theory rests on the fact that you start with 0 Nitrates
on day 0 nitrates = 0
on day 10 nitrates =10
50% water change
nitrates now at 5 restart
therefore it's now day 0 again and nitrates = 5
on day 10 nitrates = 15
50% water change....
That's what he's going with
so each time you drop the nitrates by half you're still generating a net growth of nitrates. but basically your just slowing it down. However ideally I suppose in stead of going by a set number of days you just always do a water change when the nitrates reach ten that way you always half it back to 5 and no net change would occur...
therefore schedule would go like this
Day 0 nitrates= 0
day 10 nitrates = 10
50% WC reset
therefore:
Day 0 Nitrates = 5
Day 5 Nitrates = 10
50% WC reset
therefore:
Day 0 Nitrates = 5
Day 5 Nitrates = 10
50% WC reset
repeat....
Hey I just broke his entire theory!!!! 
I'm smart when I stop sleeping..  . | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifesabeach I'm confused by it too. The way it is explained makes sense mathematically, but if it was true, everyone with a tank would be complaining be having trouble over time. |  I agree..I know for a fact that water changes lower nitrates..depending on your stock and size tank, planted or not planted, over fed or under fed...etc...depends on how fast they climb back up | |
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April 24th, 2009
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| | Fish Master
| ... um guys... I ninja'd shawnie... | |
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