DannyMac

I recently started a 36 gallon freshwater, lightly planted fish tank. This is my first tank so I did a good deal of research when first starting and I felt like I learned everything about the nitrogen cycle and how it works. I decided to cycle with a few zebra danios and left them in for about 6 weeks until the cycle was complete, at least I thought it was complete. I saw the ammonia rise then fall, then nitrate rise and fall, until both were at zero so I figured the cycle was complete.

At this point I started stocking the tank with a few fish every week or so, to try and give the biological filter enough time to react to the added bio load. Everything was fine until recently, when my tank readings were showing an increase in ammonia and a decrease in pH. The amnmonia has been steadly rising and is staying at 5.0 PPM. My pH is at 6.0 right now, despite my tap water being 7.4. As a temporary fix I have been doing daily 20% water changes to offset the increased ammonia levels, but I would like a permanent solution. I also cut down the feedings to once a day instead of twice to help cut the ammonia levels.

My question is could the decrease in pH have killed my benefical bacteria? Why is the pH so low? I don't have any drift wood, but I do have about 6 small plants. Could I have added too many fish too fast? I thought one or two small fish every week was ok. I had been using Amquel Plus to offset the high ammonia levels initially, could that have possibly had an affect on the bacteria?

Please help! I don't want to lose my fish and start all over.

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore!!!!

what test kit are you using ? and did you ever get a nitrite reading? do you have a nitrate reading now?finding out if you truely were cycled to begin with is going to be the key....1 or 2 small fish with a small bio load is fine every few weeks..if the cycle completed to begin with....the amquel wouldnt effect the cycle and will help at this point..you need to do 50% water changes a day until you are re cycled...id even do 2 50% changes for a few days until you can get the ammonia much lower...about 4-5 hours apart will be good...

DannyMac

I am using the API test kit with the droppers and viles.

I did get nitrite reading when cycling, but now it is gone. I don't have a nitrate reading right now either. I had been getting low nitrate readings initially, which is why I started adding more fish.

What happened to the biological filter? Do you think the pH affected it or does it just need to catch up with the bioload? Any ideas on why my pH is so low? How should I use the Amquel Plus? Daily use?

I will keep up the water changes, but I am concerned that something is wrong with the water chemisty causing very low pH. I have read that pH isn't as important to fish a good water quality, should I be concerned about the pH?

Shawnie

do you have live plants in the tank? if not, you arent cycled as you need a nitrate reading to have a completed one....you want 0 ammonia & nitrites, and under 20 nitrates (unless live plants are in there) for a completed cycle...so im guessing, you never finished to begin with ...took me 9 weeks to cycle with fish before I knew that it wasnt good to do it that way ...thank god my fish are forgiven and I learned about fishlore!! ...

you are correct that fish will adapt to different ph's as long as they are not changing fast...consistent 6.0 and if the fish are handling it well, is fine...a stable ph is very important ...ive never heard of a low ph effecting the cycle but maybe some other members will know...ph ranges will change all the time during a cycle process..especially when cycling with fish ....

the amquel plus will keep the fish safe for 24 hours until your next water change...so yes use it daily...but deffinately do a 50% water change now with the amquel, then maybe another 50% tonite ...that 5ppm is deadly....

edit: just saw you had some small plants...how small? and what are they ? just wondering if they could be eating up the nitrates but if they are really small, in a tank your size, im thinking you still should have some nitrates?

DannyMac

I don't know the scientific names of the plants in my tank, but there are some sword leaf plants, a fern, a couple other broad leafed plants. They might be using the nitrates up, which could be why if I ever get a nitrate reading it is very low.

I guess the only thing to do is keep up the water changes. I really hate doing it everyday, but sounds like I have no other choice until the levels get corrected. I'll try doing a large water change today and see how that changes the chemistry.

And by the way, can I use Stresscoat instead of Amquel to control the ammonia? I have both, but I have noticed that the Amquel leaves my tank smelling like eggs after a couple uses.

Shawnie

you can use stress coat if its the + (plus) version..you need something to neutralize/detoxify the ammonia but still keep it available to finish up the mini cycle....never heard of amquel leaving a nasty smell...could it be bad? and hmmmm an egg smelling tank isnt good ...can you find some tetra safestart in your area? if so , that would save you some water changes and help alot as its a live bacteria to help with the cycle ...but you still need to get that 5ppm lower before even adding that...call around to see if you can find some tho!

DannyMac

Maybe the Amquel is bad, because the liquid in the bottle smells like eggs before I even add it to the tank. Is that not normal? I read that sulfur is the active ingredient in Amquel, hence the egg smell. If it is bad then I will dump it. And I do have the Stresscoat + so I'll just use that.

I have heard mixed reviews of the bacteria culture products available in stores, is the Tetra Safestart different? I tried using some Stresszyme at the start of my cycle and didn't see any results.

Shawnie

not sure on the amquel smell..ive only used stress coat+...maybe some other members have tho?

I agree there are a TON of "instant cycle" products that claim to do something that dont....stress zyme isnt self sustaining and will only work if you use it for the life of the tank...theres a ton of info and threads about safestart and its use here on fishlore..you can deffinately search and read more...ive used it many many times and although ive never had a negative result, and it has always worked for me and my tanks, everyone has an opinion....it took the place of freshwater bio spira and I swear by it.but again, that ammonia level needs to come down a bit so its not overwhelmed and a waste of money ....around here, i can get a bottle that does up to 75 gallons for $21 ...to me, thats cheap for such a great result....

AlyeskaGirl

I have a bottle of Amquel Plus and yes that smell is normal...so it's nothing to worry about.

DannyMac

Last Friday I added some of the Terta SafeStart to my tank. The ammonia level has remained constant around 3 ppm for the past week, but I have noticed an increase in the nitrites ( about .25 ppm). I am only feeding once a day while the ammonia is high. I am hoping the TSS will continue to do what it say it does. I'll post again with an update next week.

aquarist48

Sorry to hear you're having problems. I too use Amquel +...it doesn't smell pleasant. It's not the problem of your pH levels. You do know that pH is not 100% stable. It will fluctuate from time to time. The best we can do is TRY and keep it stable with water changes.

alicem

I'm so sorry that you are having such a difficult time with your new tank.
Here are a few things for you to consider:

If your KH is low the pH will drop. The ammonia and other acids are using the KH which in turn is lowering the pH.
A low pH is actually in your favor with the ammonia levels so high in your tank.

The amquel is locking up the ammonia, making it available to the bacteria, but safer for the fish.
Your tests will still read ammonia, because it is still in the tank.

Is there a dead fish hiding in there. Often that is the culprit when ammonia rises and gets that high.

Water changes "are your friend" right now.

What ever you do, don't touch (clean) the filter. The largest amount of nitrobacters are located in the filter.

Also, I'd stop feeding for several days.
Normally your fish would be fine for a week or more without food if they are healthy to begin with.
Yours have been stressed by the ammonia, so I'd suggest stop feeding for 3 or 4 days and when you begin again, do so sparingly, like a small amount once, every other day.
I understand this advice is tough, but it will be harder on you than on the fish.
The food and waste produced by the fish adds to the ammonia problem.

Are the danios still in there. Can you bear to remove them?
Have you added a pleco? They are huge waste producers. Maybe you can return it to the LFS until this gets under control...
Best of luck to you, let us know how it goes.
alicem

Butterfly

Sounds like your getting good advice across the board. The only thing I have to add is to hang in there and keep us posted as to how you and your fish are doing.
Carol

DannyMac

I don't have a test for KH, can you explain what it is?

My pH has been at 6.0 for quite some time now, should I not worry about it or would you advise me adding some shells or coral to raise the pH? Why is it so low? Could live plants be the problem?

I am going to keep changing the water to maintain reasonable ammonia levels, but can the low pH affect the bacteria from growing?

I do have some plants in the tank, could they possibly be having a negative affect on the cycling?

My tank currently has 5 danios, 3 cories, 2 gouramis, 1 oto cat and 1 pictus cat. They are all still active and appear to be doing well. I check everyday and they are no dead fish hiding.

I think i'll take your advise and let the fish go without food for a while to see if the ammonia can go down on its own.

Butterfly

Cutting down/not feeding for a few days is a good idea but you still need to do water changes to get the ammonia down. Do you vacuum the substrate regularly ? Before you started having the ammonia problem were you doing water changes? I use the API test kit also and it is the best I have found but is there any way you can take a sample to your fish store and ask them to test the pH for you(just as a verification)? Ask them for a number(usually they just say it's ok or it's not ok.
Live plants are not your problem. They are definitely a plus in a tank, since using them for food they help keep the Nitrates down.
Carol

alicem

I'm not a scientist and so it's difficult to relay the technical part of it, so here's my version, as a simple person:
KH is carbonate hardness. KH is a "buffer" or stabilizer for pH and has a relationship with it.
(KH doesn't mean hardnes of the water, that's GH or general hardness.)
When the KH is under 5 or 6 the pH can possibly drop or become less stable.
KH and GH tests usually come together from API. You might consider getting one.

No, live plants aren't a problem, unless there is alot of them disintrigrating
and dead leaves left about, fowling the tank.
I would be careful raising pH, but I have been doing some reading and it may be necessary.

Since your pH has been the same "for quite some time now" in the tank, it could be from a couple of things.
This could be where it naturally "settles" in the tank.
Eventhough the tap comes out at 7.4, the pH lowers in the tank because of off gassing, which has to do with co2 and oxigen...
Or, KH can get used up over time, if it is low to begin with, and if a person doesn't do regular partial water changes to replace it.

Some of what I have read says this:
Now, that being said, I don't think a sudden large pH change is in order. Does your water change raise the pH?
If so, how quickly does it then lower, 2 hrs, 12 hrs., 24 hrs?

Plants are good. Unless you have alot of die off, keep them in there.

That's good to hear.

Do partial water changes too. They won't hurt the cycle and could help raise pH gently and help the cycle get going.
There is a simple way to raise the pH. I'm nervous about advising you how to raise it.
I've forgotten the ratio of raising the pH to what degree to what legnth of time. It would take some experimenting with your tank water to find out how easliy it is affected.
I don't want to cause you any more grief that you've already had.
alicem

Butterfly

Ph fluctuations cause more harm than a stable pH. So as long as it stays stable lets not try to adjust the pH just yet. Getting the Ammonia in hand is most important at this point. Keep those water changes and gravel vacuums up and do have that pH verified. It's possible there's something wrong with the test it's self. Which ph test are you using? The ph high or the pH low ?
Carol

alicem

I agree with Carol, DannyMac, water changes, no feeding and the other things she suggested are the way to go.
My post was probably more info than you needed right now, sorry.
alicem

Butterfly

Alice your post was fine. I just wanted to confirm some of the things you suggested and emphasize water changes and substrate vacuums.
carol

DannyMac

I am using the API test kit, and I am testing using the low range pH test. Being that the kit only measures pH's above 6.0, maybe my pH is even lower than 6.0. Its interesting to hear that the bacteria stalls at 6.2 pH. I think I will try and gradually change the pH with water changes.

I have been doing water changes, about 15% daily, but the pH doesn't get above 6.0 after the water changes. I'll try and do some larger water changes this weekend to get the pH up.

I do have one plant that is looking not so good now. I'll remove that one and see if it affects the water chemistry.

Thanks for all the advise, I'm sure my fish appreciate it

alicem

Best of luck, DannyMac.
The larger water changes should help. Let us know how it goes.
alicem

DannyMac

I have been doing daily water changes of about 15-20% and the results have been not impressive. I am able to get the pH up to 6.4 after a water change, but the next day the pH is back down to 6.0. Something is causing the pH to crash in my tank and I have no idea what it could be!!!

I have heard some shells in the tank can help raise the pH, does anyone have experience with this technique and is there anything specific I should know? Should I crush them? Boil them? Keep them in a bag?

I'm convinced that my low pH is the cause of my bacteria failing to grow, so I am going to try and raise it by any means necessary. But I want a permanent fix, not using some pH raising powder from the store.

alicem

You are between a rock and a hard place here.
If you adjust things, you could loose fish along the way.
If you do nothing you could still loose fish.

Here's the first adjustment and potential problem:
You might slowly raise the water temp. to about 78. I feel the bacteria multiply faster with warmer water.
Raise it very slowly over time because when you raise the temp. there is less oxigen in the water.
NitrIte poisoning affects the fish's breathing. Less oxigen in the water will stress them further.
To help with this, lower the water level so the hang on the back filter "splashes" into the tank. This will break the surface of the water so co2 can escape.

Next you'll need a KH/GH test kit. You need to know the KH of the tank and your tap or replacement water.
Once you have the test kit and test the KH, we will know how to proceed.

Remember I told you that KH and pH relate to each other. If your KH is low the pH will be less stable.
KH needs to be at least 5 dh or 89.5 ppm to be more stable.
I think the ammonia and nitrites have been using up the KH which in turn lets the pH drop.

This is the next adjustment and potential problem.
When we start raising the pH your fish are at risk again because of the higher than normal ammonia.
Ammonia becomes more toxic as the pH is higher.

I don't have first hand knowledge for the proceedure for adding crushed shells or corals,
but I have heard putting them bagged in the filter will slowly raise the hardness.
I don't know how you can control how fast the pH will rise, so I would be cautious doing this.

Keep up the water changes to keep the ammonia and nitrItes as low as possible.
Once you get the test kit for KH, we can start adjusting it in the change water and slowly raise the pH that way.

We'll want to only raise it just enough so the bacteria can start growing more vigorously and the ammonia not harm your fish any more than it has.

hth,
alicem

DannyMac

I guess I must be learning more about this stuff, because I was going to get the kH/gH kit today after work. Good to know I'm on the same page as you. I'm going to get the API test kit and I'll post the results of both the tank water and the tap water at my house.

I added some shells to the filter yesterday also, and I'll monitor the progress of that as well. I hope the results are telling, because I want to get this thing cycled!

AlyeskaGirl

I hope everything is going OK now. I posted a link below in regards to pH.

http://www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/107

DannyMac

I think I got it figured out! I added some shells earlier in the week and over the course of a few days the pH went from 6.0 up to around 6.6. With the pH higher, the tank started to cycle again. I started getting nitrite readings after the second day and the ammonia seems to be stablizing. I am going to continue to moniter the reading of the ammonia and nitrite closely, but I think the tank is finally on the right track to cycling.

The only mystery is why the tank pH was low to start with. I am guessing that I might have over fed the fish initially (3 times day based on bad advise from the fish food label) and the gravel contains a large amount of decaying fish food. I plan on vacuuming the gravel well and hopefully this will fix the pH dilemma for good.

alicem

Good to hear things are going in the right direction.
Butterfly was right on target suggesting more substrate vac-ing and waterchanges.

DannyMac

The tank is still going through its cycle. The ammonia is very low now(0.25ppm) and the nitrite has spiked (3ppm). Hopefully, the nitrite will begin to decrease soon and my cycle will be done! Can the fish handle this nitrite spike? I was thinking about a water change to help em through it.

Also, I think I discovered the cause of my pH issues. I was using Flouish gravel tablets with plant suppliments and on the box it says in soft water it can have acidic properties! So, I'm not using that stuff anymore.

I have been using sodium bicarbonate as a quick fix to keep the pH at the right level for my cycle to finish. Anybody have any advise on how to buffer water to keep a stable pH?

alicem

NitrIte is very poisionous. It robs the oxigen from the water. When the fish die from nitrite poisioning, often you find them with their mouths open wide.

The temp. is important. If too high, there is less oxigen in the water, if too low the bacteria don't grow as well.
You need to find a fine line with the temp. you could try about 77-78 degrees.

If you have a hang on the back filter (power filter) lower the water level a little so the water returning from the filter splashes into the tank.
It may sound annoying, but this will help break the surface tension and oxigenate the water.

Do water changes daily, or as often as you can, to reduce the nitrites. Pouring in the replacement water also puts oxigen in the water.
Remember to match the temp. and other parameters of the replacement water to lessen any stress to the fish.
Your tank should continue to cycle with water changes.

Good to know a possible cause and things to avoid.
Yes, it's always best to read the package. You've made others aware of this potential problem.

Sodium bicarb. (baking soda) will buffer the water. It raises the KH (the buffer) and stabilizes the pH.

Did you get the KH/GH test kit? If you didn, what is the KH reading? Keep the KH around 5-6 so the pH stable will stabilize.
Remember, we don't want the pH to get too high. Raising the pH coincides with raising the KH, by using sodium bicarb.

The elevated nitrite at a higher pH will have a more adverse affect on the fish.
Keep the pH at 6.6 since the tank is cycling again at that reading.

Good for you, DannyMac, for sticking with this. Others might have given up.
Hang in there, I believe you are close to having your tank balanced.

By sharing your story, you've helped others who might possbily have these problems.


alicem

AlyeskaGirl

It's so true about the pH being 6.0 or below that will start to kill off the nitrifying bacteria or not even see any nitrIte readings if you are trying to cycle...all there is is ammonia and it's not converting into nitrItes etc. I've had that problem.