CWO4GUNNER

Since I seeded my 120 tank 7 days ago and added fish 12 hours afterwords, 3 molly's with 50 fry then 4 days later 3 Cory, 2 angels, my Pleco and My Colombian Shark, all has been relatively well and both tanks readings have been almost identical until yesterday my 120 tank started reading .15 ammonia, a slight tinge of lemon-lime color but defiantly some green so I have been adding 1/2 doses of Prime with seed water from the 60 tank. Then yesterday I decided to do a major water change in both tanks since I haven't done so in 7 days, no seed water this time and maybe a mistake. After a 30% water change in both tanks the 60 tank is perfect but the 120 tank has spiked in both ammonia .25 PPM and nitrite .50 PPM. All this on the heels of a major water chnage make no sense unless new bacteria were affected (shocked) by the change in new water not having used the old water out of the 60 tank perhaps is the only explanation as the tap water is free of these toxins.
The only radical step I can think of taking other then boosting Prime treatment to full dose and dropping pH, is to swap out the canister filters as they are both magnum 350's it would be a snap to undo the couplers and swap them out. It will either work or put my established filter into shock creating a worse situation and possibly spiking my 60 tank as well.
Recommendations please while I dose with Prime?

Tick-Toc-Tick-Toc!

aquarist48

hmmmm sounds like you may need to do some 50% changes a few days in a row. I don't know that I would move my filter from the cycled tank to the other. As you stated that could cause you a lot more headaches. So, increase the water changes and leave the filter alone, prime it (if that's your chem of choice). Does Prime neutralize ammonia?

navyscuba

i would use seeded water and put some tap too and use prime to treat the whole tank. That's what i did on mine and everything is going good after my huge spike of ammonia.

AlyeskaGirl

Hmmm.....my thought is is that you added the fish way too fast!

This is how I would of done it:
3 Mollys and fry
Waited a week or two
Add shark,
wait
add Pleco,
wait
add the Corys,
wait
add Angelfish

I would of waited for two weeks before adding the Corys and Angelfish because they are sensitive to water conditions, at least that is my opinion.

Good luck all you can do now is water changes with Prime like you said.

Shawnie

I dont think the bigger tank has enough bacteria to sustain all the bioload of the fish added...60 gal seeded material going onto a tank double its size, probably needed more time to seed it self..then to add the bioload of double onto of that with the fish , probably sent them overboard....I wouldnt switch out filters because as you said, you could have 2 mini cycles.....other than the water changes would be some TSS to speed things up ...or even removing some more media/deco/subtrate from the 60 might help but not too much to throw it off

CWO4GUNNER

Yes I know I just didn't expect the Molly's to have kids after putting them inside, then I couldn't pass up those 3" angles for that price and I needed Corys to start cleaning up the bottom, The Pleco needed room and the Colombian Shark was starting to chasing my Otto's in the 60 tank.
Not too many fish but too many fish too fast yes, and the Colombian Shark has got to go what a big un-researched mistake that was, gone as soon as I can find a taker.

OK Im in a tight spot for not taking my own advice but I have a bad feeling if I water change this soon with this hard water (800 PPM Cal/Mag) treated or not the delicate and limited bacteria in my 120 will get worse way before it gets better. And while I think swapping out the two filters could be monitored closely for the slightest sign of a problem and quickly undone, I should try seeding more water first from the 60 since the method was working better before I did a new hard water change and the water seeding apparently helped navyscuba in his recent similar incident. Both tanks were just water changed just last night so I'm just going Prime and wait at least 24 hours to give this last waterchange, the bacteria, and the fish time to get over any shock while monitoring the situation closely.
Steady as she goes, I'm defiantly in the Cycle Sea now with woman and children aboard so I must not fail.

OK. I have decided since I don't want to introduce any new hard water for 24 hours at this time to the situation, Im going to do a tank to tank water transfusion instead. I will drain 5 gallons from each tank into separate 5 gallon containers sanctimoniously then swap the water. That will seed and at the same time allow the 60 tank to process some of the 120 water. Since the 120 water is already Prime treated it shouldn't affect the 60.

On third though I ask myself what would the General do, his name given to this 120 aquarium. In 1945 when General MacArthur's confronted a devastating invasion from the NK into the SK, his decision for an amphibious landing at Incheon, deep behind enemy lines was described as bold daring brilliant and dangerous!
Time to swap filters and take the battle to the enemy! I'm bringing the the USS General MacArthur about and joining up with the USS Captain Aquarius along side for assistance.
"NOW GENERAL QUARTERS, GENERAL QUARTERS, ALL HANDS MAN YOUR BATTLE STATIONS! THIS IS NOT A DRILL, THIS IS NOT A DRILL!

CWO4GUNNER

Its done! The quick disconnect canister couplings worked and swapped out like a charm and both fired right up like they were never moved. Its out of my hands now for at least the next few hours and will post any changes.
OK back to doing 08 taxes.

CWO4GUNNER

After 2 hours I had to take a peek and did a water test. With caution I can tell you the results are promising so far:

The 120 tank with my 60 canister swap installed had ammonia numbers just slightly lower then .25 PPM previously. But because the color change is so slight I'm calling it unchanged at .25 PPM ammonia.
The obvious good news for the 120 tank is in the pronounced drop in Nitrite to a solid .25 down from a solid .50.

The 60 tank with the new 120 canister swap installed are still a solid zero in ammonia and nitrite test results.
As far as nitrate goes I had always expected a steady drop for both aquariums as the Hedra Ivy plant filters get 100% established removing Nitrates from both independent of any water changes. The 120 and 60 tank are both registering 10 PPM Nitrate and should continue to drop to 0 as the plants take hold once again.
So far so good....
Of course the overall good news is besides all this at .25 PPM ammonia, 76F and 7.7 PH the NH3 Toxicity Tables have me still in the safe zone of .008. Higher readings in either temp or PH, and the water would be toxic at .03 PPM.

CWO4GUNNER

Update.. 9 hours after swapping out the canister portion of the 350 filters between my 60 cycled and uncycled 120 tanks. No change...

The new 120 tank is still at .25 PPM ammonia and .25 nitrite while the established 60 tank is still 0 PPM ammonia and 0 PPM nitrite wired lol.
I guess there is allot more bacterial in an established cycled aquarium itself then I realized and far less in the filter media then I suspected. But wont know for sure until tomorrow so I think Ill sleep on the couch and take readings every few hours encase we get hit broadside by enemy I have a secret weapon standing by (30gal RO water change with WDV). But I think we'll hold off and be able to get-R out of harms way by morning.

CWO4GUNNER

Morning . I have to admit I was a bit hesitant to look at the numbers this morning as all the water and fish look fine at a glance. But 19 hours since swapping filters we finally have much better results as follows:

new cycling 120 tank utilizing established 60 tank filter:
AMMO 0
Nitri .50
PH 7.2
Temp 76
Nitra 10
Why Nitri spiked a little as ammonia went down probubly due to more ammonia having been processes into nitrites and other bacteria playing catchup to consume nitrites into nitrates, that is where my plant filter comes in.

Surprisingly the established 60 tank utilizing the swapped out new unicycle filter are as follows:
AMMO 0
Nitri 0
PH 7.6
Temp 75
Nitra 10
Apparently all the cycled and established aquarium surfaces, pluming, sand, and ornaments share at least an equal amount of beneficial bacteria to keep the numbers at zero. However post feeding time may yield a different story, hopefully not. We will have to wait and see if we reach perfect Librium on both tanks. Since the filter swap not water changes have been conducted.

Lucy

Looks like you're getting on track. Personally, I'd do a water change to get the nitrites down a bit, but that's just me.

navyscuba

Good Job Gunner.

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks all!
For the most part I'm holding off on water change because I just did a major one 24 hours ago. I was reading an article I forgot to finish and now cant find about how water changes exceeding 30% in established or nearly established tanks can drop the DOC levels (whatever that is) and put fish into shock, so Im being cautious also wanted to exclude other factors in this filter swap in order to make a clear assessment of the results without being tainted by other factors. As soon as the tanks are consistently stable I will do another water change in about 5 days unless numbers start to go south again. In the mean time no more fish, light meals, Prime dosing at 1pm if nitrites still .50, "steady as she goes".

Lucy

DOC....copied from Fish Lore Dictionary
abbreviation for Dissolved Organic Carbon or Dissolved Organic Compounds. DOC is the dissolved carbon compounds in the aquarium water that form as a result of various biological processes that take place in the aquarium. It's difficult to measure DOC in aquariums, so Nitrate was one of the things hobbyists started to use as a guide to know when the DOC's were getting too high. When the nitrates started edging up so too were the dissolved organics. To remove DOC from your aquarium you will need to do water changes, use chemical filtration and protein skimming in saltwater aquariums.

navyscuba

Good Info Lucy.

CWO4GUNNER

Thanks Lucy, you can always be counted on for good info.
I still cant find the article but while it said that DOCs need to be removed with water chnages. Excessive amounts in too frequent a period can deplete DOC so much that other necessary elements they carry like electrolytes be diminished and cause fish shock. I think the article said no more then 30% in cycled or near cycled aquariums in a 24 hour period.
I also remember reading another article about excessive percentage of water change in established aquariums beyond 30-50% can cause PH shock if nitrates that have lowered PH levels relative to your tap water the sudden rise in a large water change can cause PH shock and fish death 24 hours following. Also is responsible for the majority of fish deaths that occur following 24 hours of a water change. I know that of the few fish death I have experienced half have occurred following 24 hours after a water change and so I am much more cautious about doing them too often and in too great an amount.
Update, great news & OK news :
New cycling 120 tank utilizing established 60 tank filter 34 hours after swap:
AMMO 0
Nitri 0
PH 7.3
Temp 78
Nitra 10
Another Surprise for the established 60 tank utilizing the swapped out new unicycle filter are as follows:
AMMO 0
Nitri .25
PH 7.6
Temp 75
Nitra 10
Unexpectedly nitrite rose a little. I hope this means that if there was a mini cycle in the works after what amounts to completely killing your established filter with with new media, it means that the spike in ammonia has already been handled seamlessly by available ammonia eating bacteria inside the tank and that small spike in nitrite is the aftermath of nitrite eating bacteria trying catching up. At least I hope so and by tomorrow we will find out if that is so or the beginning of a problem. As a precaution I treated the 60 tank with Prime. However no water change has been conducted scheduled for next Thursday at the earliest.

CWO4GUNNER

Here are the test tube results. The 2 tubes on the left represent the 120 tank test results and the 2 on the right the 60 tank results. The scotch tape you see which has lasted for 10 test so far without coming off represents the 2.5 ml test level which is dosed with half the testing fluid resulting in the exact same results as the full 5ml test time after time, which is a real savings in test fluid money.
Having said all that you will notice that the 60 tank test results test on the right, besides the .25 nitrite rise also shows a very tiny tinge of green which doesn't register on the card so I gave it a 0 in ammonia but it can also be .15 PPM. So the 60 tank pretty much is mirroring what happened to the 120 the first 24 hours of the filter swap. The question is will it rebalanced to 0 or is it going the other way as a result of the loss of its cycled filter.

Any guesses as to what the 60 tank will do?

CWO4GUNNER

OK well guessing aside here are the test results 42 hours after the filter swap. As you can see the 60 tank test results on the right show ammonia has fallen back down to a solid 0 while nitrite still hangs at .25. But if ammonia falling is any indication of what to happen with nitrite I hope it will be back at 0 by this evening.
The 120 test results on the left show another day of consistent solid 0 for both ammonia and nitrite. So I think we are back and have won the battle of Spike Harbor and the risky move payed off in both time and effort.


"NOW HEAR THIS! Suspend general quarters and resume condition 3 watches throughout the ship. MacArthur and Aquarius will break formation and resume separate courses within striking distance of enemy forces, that is all"