nitz

So I read in an article ( http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articl...cle/Page1.html ) that the nitrifying bacteria need some phosphate to get started. I used an ammonia liquid that didn't have phosphate in it and had a ton of trouble just getting my cycle started (as seen on this thread: Cycle won't start!! ) even with seeding it pretty well.

I did a couple pretty big water changes then found that article, so then I put in some fish food and only raised the ammonia to about 2ppm. I didn't test for a couple days because I really didn't expect anything to happen but when I did test, I got a reading of 0ppm ammonia!! I did get this breakout of what was possibly hair algae (which I started another thread about: White stuff in my water ).

My tank could have already been cycling but the ammonia concentration was just too high to see much of a change. Would it be right to think that all the bacteria needed was some phosphate or is that just a myth?

sirdarksol

It's possible. One of the nitrifying "bacteria" is cyanobacteria, which is somewhere between algae and bacteria, and does, indeed, need phosphates to grow.

I suppose the ammonia-only method works for people because most of us get our water from sources that have a natural phosphorous source, often from fertilizers leaking into the water table.

nitz

That's good to know. I had no idea that it wasn't really a bacteria but more in between algae and bacteria. Also wasn't sure about the phosphate. I had heard that you don't want to add phosphate because then you'll have a big algae problem which you don't want but I guess this is an algae "problem" that you actually do want?

I live in Toronto so I'm assuming there's some form of phosphate in the tap water. I probably just over dosed the tank so that my ammonia reading was off the chart and I couldn't see it coming down.

Thanks for your help sirdarksol. Hopefully this can be helpful to others who find themselves in the same situation I was in.

Lucy

It was interesting article. Thanks for sharing it.

Nitz, I was just rereading your thread and was thinking the same thing.....too much ammonia in the first place. Alessa's cycle was much the same as yours.

I guess there's no way of knowing if it was lack of phosphates unless you had followed their instructions to the letter....without the phosphate source.

nitz

Oh Lucy, I read so many articles and fishless cycle diaries before I started. I did multiple searches on google and probably went to all the links on the first 3 or 4 pages. I thought I had the fishless cycling down and that since I was such an "expert" on it from reading all those articles, that somehow it would magically cycle in a week. Didn't I get a nice wake up call?

Well I'm picking up a 10 gal tank today. Do you think I should try this method without the phosphate source?

Lucy

I only mentioned not using the phosphates to say that's the only way to know if that's what was missing.

I think I'd go ahead an do the cycle with pure ammonia, if you get stuck, you can always try the phosphates like the article says.
I don't know if I was crazy about messing with the ph like it states either.
I think you'll find if you don't add as much ammonia as before you'll be fine, just be patient.

nitz

Thanks Lucy. Hopefully this tank cycles faster.
I'm putting it in my Grandma's room. I think she'll like the betta I put in otherwise I'll be spending a lot of time in her room.

Lucy

Good luck. I have a 30g sitting here, I'm not looking foward to cycling it at all.

nitz

Thanks Lucy. Good luck with cycling it. Hopefully it goes fast!!

Lucy

Thanks!
I'm actually wondering if the amount of ammonia used to cycle a tank (when following the intructions for fish less cycleing) is overwhelming the bacteria in whatever was used to seed the tank.
Kind of like setting off a mini cycle.
My thoughts have always been if you seed the tank nicely, you only need to feed the bacteria after that, either with fish or a small amount of ammonia.

Did that make sense?

nitz

Ya it did. I think that even if you seed it, you should still go fishless (i know you said you were) but add the ammonia slowly to build up the bacteria. Since the bacteria is coming from another tank, unless the tank is much larger than the one you're seeding, I think that the bacteria present isn't really enough to completely cycle the tank so by starting slow, you allow the bacteria to multiply without overwhelming them, then you just increase it until it can handle about 2-3ppm ammonia in a day.
Of course this is just what's been going on in my head since my tank cycled. The reason I say 2-3ppm ammonia in a day is because once you see nitrites, you're cutting your ammonia in half anyways so that I'm guessing the ammonia algae/bacteria are dying back to this level. Also, as you said in your thread, you might not even see nitrites so you don't want to kill off the nitrite-to-nitrate bacteria with high concentrations of ammonia.

I hope I didn't confuse you and maybe I'm just repeating what you said. Now did that make sense??

Lucy

Yeah, it made perfect sense. lol

There's another thread, someone else has a stuck cycle. I referred them to this thread to read the article.

I was thinking back and found an older thread of mine. You might find it interesting.......or not. lol
Interesting Test Results

I never posted back to it, but I never did get nitrite readings. Changed the water a couple days in a row and it was fine. Much smaller scale tank than you.

nitz

Ya that was interesting. You already know that my tank never showed nitrites which is weird to me. People have said that high ammonia concentrations kill or slow down the nitrite bacteria but the ammonia concentration in that tank was off the charts and it still didn't affect them!! I'm using the rest of this week to just make sure the tank is cycled by adding about 2ppm ammonia per day and testing everything just before that addition. Still no nitrites and just a little ammonia reading today because I put a bit too much ammonia yesterday. Compensated for that extra today so hopefully I get 0s again tomorrow.

Oh...nitrates are up above 10 but below 20 now so I know for sure that something's going on in there. I almost jumped for joy when I saw that.

Lucy

I bet! It's cause to celebrate, for sure.