calinb

I have a 10 gal tank with two goldfish (2" and 3"). Yeah--I'll need a larger tank soon. I used Bio-Spira and never saw any ammonia levels. However, after two weeks, I was still doing 50% water changes 2 times per day for nitrites. The frequent changes keep the nitrites between 0.5 and 1.0 ppm with nitrates running 5 ppm so I dosed the tank with Cycle. Three days later and no change so I just dosed with cycle again and raised the temperature from 75 to 78 degrees. The cycling article says warmer water may speed things up but goldies don't like it too warm.

Two water changes a day is a getting old so should I add Prime to reduce the nitrites or will it screw up or slow the cycle process? I've read how it messes up some test kits. I use AP.

My theory is that Bio-Spira worked (never saw amomonia) but, by the time the nitrites came up, the nitrite munching bacteria in Bio-Spira had perished.

Should I add another dose of Bio-Sprira? I know there are many ways to proceed, including keeping up the 2x daily changes but I could sure use some other ideas here.

Thanks much,

-Cal

pH 7.5
Nitrate 5 ppm
Nitrite 0.5 to 1.0 ppm (two 50% changes per day)
GH 25 ppm (coral/shells in filter)
KH 180 (1.5 tsp baking soda / 10 gal to buffer our soft water)
Cl 0
Ammonia 0
75 F (increasing to 78 F)

susitna-flower

Hi, WELCOME TO FISHLORE!!!!


When you add Bio-Spira, you aren't suppose to do waterchanges. I believe the directions say something about waiting a week.....Since the bio-spira is in the water, (until it develops colonies on decorations, gravel, and in the filter), if you change the water you actually were getting rid of some of the bacteria....

IF you want to add more bio-spira that would be ok. It wouldn't hurt anything. In fact it should help, in case you did wash too much away.

I wouldn't use cycle again.

You can use Prime to protect your fish from the nitrite while your tank is cycling, the directions state with toxic levels of nitrites you can use up to 5 times the normal dose.

As you already know this tank is much too small for two goldfish, and you will have much better success if you get a tank that is 55 gallons. Good Luck

calinb

Oops! Actually, better directions is one place that Bio-Spira could improve. It doesn't really say to discontinue water changes (see below) but, obviously, the NOBs didn't get going when the ammonia munchers sprang into action. It also doesn't say exactly where to add the packet, but everyone seems to say just add it to the water.

I'll use Prime to detox the nitrates and try another packet of those expensive little NOBs. I plan to build a 6' x 2' a 15" tank soon (lotsa surface area/volume) and will transfer some gravel and Biostars to it before the fish.

Thanks for the advice. Cycle reviews seem to be mixed and it seems like it's designed to keep your tank hooked on it.

-Cal



CRITICAL CARE INFORMATION:
For new aquariums, first condition water with BIO-Safe™. Adjust aquarium water temperature. Add BIO-Spira™ and BIO-Coat™ along with fish. See your retailer for advice on the number of fish appropriate the size of your aquarium. BIO-Spira may also be added with each water change, when adding additional fish, and established aquaria that are experiencing water quality problems due to disruption of the bio-filter.
DIRECTIONS FOR USE:
Shake well before each use. Use 1 ounce (29.6 ml) of BIO-Spira per 30 gallons of water. BIO-Spira cannot be overdosed. Keep refrigerated. Be sure to shut off any UV sterilizers and remove medication by means of a water change or activated carbon.

susitna-flower

I agree the directions could be more clear, but as you wrote, "you MAY add BIo-spira with each waterchange....." So I would take this to mean, that until the tank is safely cycled, you have to add more if you do a water change.

My personal rule is to add fish slowly once the cycle has established itself in the tank at a certain level, that will keep it from overpowering the bacteria that is established. IF I was to add say a whole school of a new fish, or a big waste producing fish like a 12" pleco, I might add another packet of bio-spira...

Yes, you just add it to the water, use a little tank water and rince the packet out into the tank and that's it.

calinb

Well, now instead of water changes, I'm doing Prime. The Prime seems to hold the nitrite level to 1.0 ppm maximum, as reported by the AP test, but I've done 1 dose every 12 hours, three times, and there's a 5x dose limit. I need to get over the our local shop that carries Bio-Spira and try adding it again, if things don't improve soon. I'll probably need to do a big water change and re-dose the Bio-Spira because I may only dose with Prime two more times and still stay within the 5x dose limit (if it's cumulative).

I'm really impressed that Bio-Spira immediately processed ammonia 2 1/2 weeks ago, but maybe I washed all the NOBs away in water changes.

Do the AP tests accurately report the toxic nitrite and less toxic nitrate remaining after Prime has been added?

Thanks so much, I've scoured the FAQ and threads and it seems this popular noob subject has many nuances and situations differ--sometimes subtly and sometimes greatly. I had tropicals as a kid and I simply conditioned some tap water, turned on the heater and filter, and dumped in some fish, and they all had long lives. I didn't even know about the nitrogen cycle. I'm going with goldfish now because they are allegedly hardy and long-lived fish and my 2-year old doesn't need any tragedies.

-Cal

susitna-flower

I thought you got gold fish because when one dies your 2 year old won't know when you replace it. I think every tank has tragedies from time to time. Are you SURE your parents didn't do this for you when you were a kid?

The API kit should test the TOTAL amount of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but the prime SHOULD protect your fish from the toxic effects.

When you have the BIO-spira on hand I WOULD suggest at least a 50% water change before adding it. Then you should have plenty of food left in the remaining water to start the bacteria growing.....things should start showing improvement, and you can use prime with bio-spira with no problem.

Good Luck

calinb

That's really funny, susitna-flower. Unfortunately, we got a fish with unusual markings.

I removed as much water as possible, added new, and re-dosed with Bio-Spira. Actually I removed a bit too much water and had to quickly transfer the fish to the bucket until I got the tank refilled, but no harm done, I think. I'll monitor the water but treat with Prime, rather than water changes, if necessary. I removed so much water, the nitrites are barely detectable (or maybe my imagination) and I can't see any nitrates. Hopefully, I'll just see nitrates this time and no ammonia, as before. I also ditched my Whisper HOB power filter and installed an Emperor 280 so I'm "over filtered" in this 10 gal tank.

I have plants so I installed a DIY CO2 ladder about a week ago and added baking soda to compensate the pH. With the big water change, I installed a Penguin reverse flow UGF powerhead with a sponge filter. Is it okay to aerate the water just by sending some bubble down into the gravel from the powerhead or do I need an aeration stone? I think I should continue to add aeration with the C02 system running.

Thanks for your help, so much!

-Cal

calinb

Susitna-flower was right. Bio-Spira works if you don't freak at the 0.5 - 1.0 ppm nitrites and don't change water. (Or do freak but add Prime )

Thanks susitna-flower!

-Cal

sunstrip

Strange....in your original post...you said that you started to do frequent water changes after 2 weeks...according to everything that I have read so far...Bio-Spira says that you should not do any water changes for 1 week...seems to me you did nothing wrong as far as the Bio-Spira is concerned...I think the prob your having is the fact that Goldfish are HUGE waste producers...in reality...your 10 gallon tank is prob coming in at around 8 Gallons after you take into consideration the substrate,plants,and decor...normally 5 inches of regular Tropical fish would be at the tanks limit...but because you have Goldfish...you ended up being over-stocked...I predict MTS ! LOL..hope everything turns out OK for ya.

calinb

i said, "after two weeks, I was still doing 50% water changes." I didn't specify when I started. I started when I first saw the nitrites spike up--between the 1st and 2nd day. You are correct that water changes are an error in BIO-Spira usage and I believe the error resulted in my initial failure to fully cycle. If I'd read the BIO-Spira "Important" section more carefully, I might not have freaked out and started changing water, but the importance of water changes is so strongly stressed by aquarists, otherwise :

"It is normal to have a small (<2 ppm) amount of ammonia or nitrate during the first few days after set-up. These concentrations are not harmful and will quickly drop to zero with proper use of BIO-Spira."

The BIO-Spira instructions don't specifically say to discontinue water changes but, perhaps, they allude to water changes discontinuation in the "Critical Care" section:

"BIO-Spira may also be added with each water change, when adding additional fish, and established aquaria that are experiencing water quality problems due to disruption of the bio-filter."

The BIO-Spira documentation is broken down into several sections, "Critical Care Information," "Directions for Use," "Principle Ingredients," "BIO-Spira Features," and "Important." The "Directions for Use" section alone is insufficient to educate the reader on proper usage.

I've also since learned, the hard way, that detoxifying agents can also cause BIO-Spira to fail. I didn't take the "IMPORTANT" section strongly to heart:

Repeated dosing of your aquarium with ammonia removing liquids (such as BIO-Safe, Amquel, Ammo-lock and Aqua-Safe) can inhibit the beneficial action of BIO-Spira.

Actually, I would not say "repeated dosing" -- I would say "any dosing!"

For more details on my experiences cycling my tanks with BIO-Spira and also without (fishless), see my other post: http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aq...bio-spira.html

It's easy to blame toxicity on over-stocking, but failure to cycle has the same effect. The tank's been cycled for nearly a month now--zero ammonia and zero nitrites!

Oscar and Felix are getting a new home soon, though. I'm either going to follow through on my interest in building a custom low profile 112 gal tank (72" x 24" x 15") or I'm going to help my local PetSmart get rid of their large inventory they can't move--a 125 gal all glass black 72" X 18" X 22" for the discounted price of $230, including hoods and lights. Then Oscar and Felix can have a few new friends!

sunstrip

Sorry...I missread.

calinb

Easy to do--that's how I screwed up my first BIO-Spira, at least partially. Thanks for your input, sunstrip, regardless.

I've posted quite a bit on the subject simply because I see a lot of people reporting that BIO-Spira didn't work for them or it took a very long time to cycle a tank. (I think, if it takes a long time to eventually cycle, it probably would've cycled without the BIO-Spira anyway!)

I also think the information in the BIO-Spira documentation could be better organized and more explicit. (DON'T do any water changes and DON'T use any detoxifying agents--at least for a few days or at least until toxins rise to high levels, in which case the user may assume the BIO-Spira treatment failed.)