Birdo

Hello, I am enjoying the forum so far! To make a long story short, my fish were overfed during my 9 day vacation, so my cycle was practically none existent in my 29 gallon tank, and ammonia was ridiculously high of level 2. I immediately did a 50% water change and got it down to level one. The next day I did another 50% water change and got it to .5. It was holding steadily at that level until I took a lot of fish out

(I was mistakenly referred to believe by a local petstore that I had to have 6-10 starter fish for a tank to cycle and they wouldn't take the fish back!!) So now my poor things are all separated. I have my dwarf gourami in a 3 gallon by himself, 2 platies in my cycling 10 gallon (I just moved one over from a smaller tank, which wasn't as badly overfed while I was gone thank goodness. Now I have 2 platies in a 2 gallon (bad I know but I am not sure where to put everyone) It's only temporary.

Anyway now it seems to be holding steady at .25 or a little less with my 5 ghost fish, 1 molly mom, and 1 baby fry. She doesn't seem to be releasing any more babies since that 1 fish on July 19th.

My current stats are Ammonia between 0 and .25, nitrite between 0 and .25, and nitrate 5. The level of nitrate in my tap water is 10! So my question is, is it safe to hold the ammonia level at .25 without changing the tank so that the bacteria as an easier time to grow? I heard too many water changes can make the cycle go even slower! I have had mixed responses on the .25 ammonia level and and .25 nitrate level for a cycling tank. Will someone tell me if I should keep changing my tank every day 25% until my tank hits the 0 mark, or should I let it sit in the tank at .25. Will the bacteria be able to grow with this level of ammonia or not? Seems like it is having trouble getting to the next phase of my cycle. What should I do? Thanks! Also if you would like to comment on what to do with my fish and who to put where please do! I was contemplating putting my dwarf gourami in the 10 gallon alone, but I heard they could do well in tanks that are 3-5 gallons as well, so I wanted to make the most use of the space by putting more fish in the 10 gallon 2 at most for cycling is ok right? Sorry for all the questions!

Charmaine

I would suggest that you check out this link for more info. Hope it helps.
I think your fish will be ok for the meantime.

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aq...itrogen-cycle/

Lucy

Hi Birdo,

I'm sorry you were misinformed by the fish store, don't hate when you rely on their 'expert' advise? Now you know better

You're right, changing the water makes the cycle go slower, but you must do it for the sake of your fish. Bacteria needs the ammonia to grow, but any amount of ammonia and nitrite can be harmful to your fish, so you must keep up with water changes until readings are 0 for ammonia and nitrites with some nitrates showing.

With your readings, it looks like your getting close.

Sorry, I can't answer you question about your dwarf gourami, I don't know anything about them.

Good luck and keep asking questions, you'll get plenty of help here.

Oh!! Welcome to Fish Lore!

Shawnie

welcome to fishlore birdo!!

Sorry for all the fishies and the mini cycle, but unfortunately, DAILY water changes of at least 50% are needed with ammonia or nitrites at any reading ....they are deadly to fish no matter what ammounts so the changes are a must from this point...the toughest thing is going to be patience...because it could take days, or weeks to complete this cycle with fish..I would get some prime to treat the tap water with water changes as prime locks the ammon and nitrite for 24 hours until your next change...as far as moving the gourami to a 3 gal tank, I wouldnt...thats not enough room for those territorial buggers...why dont you keep him in the 29 gal? was he being nawty? and 10 gallon alone wouldnt be bad, but no other fish unless some cories maybe as again, gourami's like to be boss...cycleing with fish is the hardest way and such wrong information from your pet stores is very common ...I hope things work out...goodluck!

Birdo

Thanks everyone for your prompt responses!

So I have a question if I keep changing the tank until there is no ammonia levels left wouldn't that mean there is no bacteria to help cycle the tank? How would I keep changing the tank to hit ammonia at 0 level without completely distroying the cycle? I am sure you know what you are doing, but I am just curious on how that would work if there is no ammonia for the bacteria to eat? I understand that ammonia and nitrates are toxic to fish, and that's why I heard you put in hardy fish first to cycle the tank. However, I guess I don't understand how much ammonia to leave in for the tank to continue cycling?

I moved everyone out of the tank because the ammonia levels would not drop below .5 no matter how many changes I did. I have a plastic linden mat that snaps together and looks like coral for the bottom of the tank instead of gravel. Is this affecting the really slow cycle too? I can move the dwarf gourami into the 10 gallon but the current is so strong it appears to stress him out. He seems to be happy in the 3 gallon making a lot of bubble nests, but I will take your advice into serious consideration. The 29 gallon is a nice home, which I plan on moving everyone back in as soon as the tank is done cycling. The current is adjustable on that filter. Ironically the 10 gallon would have better currents for the ghost fish, who love the current, but I didn't want to overload the biofilter. Since they are schooling fish they need to be all put together. It's just as well, they'd eventually need a bigger tank than a 10 gallon anyway.

I read that dwarf gouramis do ok in smaller tanks from 3-5 gallons 3 being the minimum, but I guess I heard wrong. I wasn't sure if putting a 3 inch fish for a starter fish would be too much for the 10 gallon's biofilter to handle and make things go off again.


I use AquaSafe fluid that supposedly has good bacteria in the mixture as well as chemicals to clear out the clorine and chloramine. I heard about the ammonia lock stuff, but I also heard that if you do this you won't know the proper ammonia reading with the tests. It will still come up as ammonia in the tank, though it has been neutralized with the chemical. If that is true I wouldn't it be more confusing to a beginner to not know the ammonia level or if it is working? Sorry for all the questions. I really appreciate all the advice. I guess I will do a 50% water change today instead of a 25% and maybe use the gourami as my starter cycling fish for the 10 gallon instead of the platy, and I will try to block some of the current with more plastic plants. Thanks everyone!

Charmaine

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Shawnie

Hi Birdo...there is very little if any beneficial bacteria in the water..its mainly in your filter media and decorations as well as some in your gravel..so changing the water wont hurt anything and only help the situation..if all your fish are removed from the 29 gal, you need to put a small piece of raw shrimp, or feed the tank a lil bit of fish food twice a day, to keep the ammonia feeding the tank..also, if all the fish are out, you DO NOT need to do water changes...the water changes are only if you are cycleing with fish...which is NEVER reccomended as its very cruel on fish..but most dont know that because our fish stores tell us to do it..

im not familiar with aquasafe although im sure someone is...most of us use prime as a water conditioner but thats after the tank is cycled...prime is great to lock the ammonia for 24hrs until the next water change when cycleing with fish...

im sticking with the guns that a 3 gal tank isnt big enough for the gourami...its barely big enough for anything fishie like but great for shrimp or a snail...

the only way to safely start a cycle with fish is the DAILY water changes or see if you can get some bio spira or safe start..both of those are beneficial bacteria that you can start a tank with and have fish..goodluck!

Birdo

Sorry for the typo Shawnie, I meant in response to your statement about moving the gourami and other fish that I already moved out. I should have said that that was in response to your other statement, not that I moved EVERYONE out of the tank.

The reason I am confused is that tetracare told me that if I do too many water changes I could disrupt the cycle by ridding the tank of beneficial bacteria. I trust you more than them though, because they were the ones trying to sell me stuff not you. They told me about ammo lock but also warned me that I wouldn't know the level of ammonia in the water if I tested. They said though it just turns the ammonia into a more harmless chemical, somehow it still comes up as positive reading in the water tests. So I thought I'd better stay away from that if I can to avoid confusion. But I think you are saying that if you change the water then the readings will be accurate again? I will continue to do 50% water changes until my cycle reaches the proper readings.

With the fish cycling, again it is sad that pet stores sold me fish instead of telling me about the fishless cycle....If I had known it was cruel I certainly wouldn't have used this way in cycling the tank. I just figured they were experts, but really they are just out to sell me stuff...which is just as sad as them selling a 3 gallon tank if it wasn't meant for most fish...I am beginning to believe that the people who design these tanks have their heads up their you know what. I just went by the fact that an inch of fish per gallon unless otherwise stated by my research on a particular breed of fish. It said that DWs are ok in smaller tank sizes from 3-5. I will do further research and check their credentials more throroughly. Again, thanks!

I heard about the BioSpira, the best and most expensive stuff around, but not only can I not afford that right now, I heard mixed results with it, and heard that it is better to do a natural one in the long run. But thanks anyway! I appreciate all the time you have given me in your advice!

Shawnie

goodluck!! and most of us have done a fish cycle as we were told the same thing as you..so dont take it wrong, ALOT of us have been there and will continue to be there as thats what pet stores do...sell stuff and make money....

jdhef

Birdo

BioSpira comes in a packet that will treat 30 or 50 gallons (sorry I can't remember which) and costs only $12. I don't know where in NJ you live, but there is a place in Clementon NJ called the Aquarium Center that carries it.

Birdo

Thanks jdhef! I did a 50% water change today and the readings are 0 ammonia, and still that strange inbetween color of dark blue...so between 0 and .25 for nitrite (I wish it had more levels between those two colors! Nitrate is disapating as well. Its below 5 now. I am guessing that means algae growth, though I can't see the algae yet. What should I do now? Should I change the water again tomorrow with 50%, or should I do a 25%, or nothing at all? I know the nitrite is definitely not 0 and not .25...they seem to be ok though I noticed my molly doing a yawn thing...you know when they hold their mouth open really wide for a second and then she stopped. I wasn't sure if any expert knows about that behavior or if I am just being over protective.

Shawnie

I would do one more 50% ..nitrites are nawty also ...so until a deffinate 0 for both, id keep up the 50%..you are almost there!~! but you do want some readings in nitrates ...under 20 is good...then you will be totally cycled!

not sure on the molly yawn..maybe someone else might tho

Birdo

Thanks again Shawnie you are a big help! Since my tap water is naturally at level 10 nitrate, would I be able to know that the tank is cycled by the nitrates reaching 0 and my nitrates shrinking? I don't see any algae but I find it strange that the nitrates are dropping in stead of rising? How many fish can I put in at once a 29 tank cycled? Yay my tank is almost cycled!!!

So far I have 6 fish in there, the pregnant molly a good 2.5 inches and the 5 ghost fish all around or close to 4 inches. The 1 baby molly fry with the bent spine died . I noticed it swimming around and around in circles the night before. I have increased the salt in my tank to 1 tablespoon per gallon to help my fish's immune system during the rough time cycling.

Lucy

As far as stocking goes, only add a few at a time so you don't overwhelm your existing bacteria and don't forget to quarantine any new inhabitants.

It looks like you're well on your way. Good luck.

jdhef

My tap water has a nitrate level of 10 also. Maybe we're on the same water supply. I never experianced it lowering though.

If you are using the API Master test kit, make sure the shake bottle two like crazy and maybe pound it against the palm of your hand or a hard surface. It seems that bottle two contains solids in solution and the solids tend to parcipitae out of the solution and as report by API can lead to a false low reading.

Birdo

So would adding my 3 inch dwarf gourami and 2 platies be too much at once?

pepetj

Birdo, what an ordeal you're going through! I would add the fish but check closely for variation patterns in ammonia and nitrites, logging readings every 6 hours or so; if parameters hold, keep them in, otherwise leave one and wait to add the others one at a time. Just keep doing daily partial water changes close to 50%.

At this point forget about accuracy in nitrates readings... focus on ammonia and nitrites.

It took me 11 days to cycle (fishless) a 29gal bow tank that eventually I had to overstock (no choice if I wanted that Oscar, the LFS wouldn't hold it for me anymore). After I addded the fish, I had Nitrites readings ranging from 0.24 to 0.48 (0.25 to 0.50) first in 24 hours, then in 36-48 hours, it took me (as I recall it, it's logged but I'm away from home and my PC) almost 3 weeks to cross the mini-cycle (in my case ammonia remained steady at zero).

I went for the allready suggested approach of almost 50% partial water changes (erring on the safe side) daily for the first few days and once I got 0.24 steady through 24 hours, everyother day.

Literature was confusing to me while I was experiencing that distress, I noticed and got confused about the label "safe levels" of nitrites, since the testing literature from the test kits estated .25 or .50 as safe levels. I learned here that the only safe level (ammonia and nitrites) for fish we keep are zero.

All my fish survived, and I know it's likely their inmune system worked hard during those days, but so far they seem to be doing well in their new tank.

Pepe
Santo Domingo

jdhef

I would think you'd be okay with the DG and 2 Platty's, but like pepetj said, just keep an eye on your water parametere. I have a 36 gallon and my first addition of fish was 3 Boseman's Rainbows which were on average about 3" each and I didn't have any problems.

Birdo

Jdhef, yeah I shook the bottle number 2 of the testing nitrate solution for 30 seconds exactly and shook the test tube for a minute just like it said, but the tests still reveals a lower nitrates level in my tank than is in my tap water. Thanks for the suggestion though, I am sure it's a common mistake.

Pepe yes I was told .25-.5 was a safe range too from the literature! Some said things I read .06 others said .25-.5, and even products that sold ammonia readings all differed in levels of safe ammonia! I am very glad I joined this forum!

Thanks Jdhef and Pepe for the suggestions on how many fish to put in and how to keep an eye on them! Everyone here rocks for being so nice and helpful to me!

jdhef

I saw somewhere (probably on this site) an email someone recieved from API about the Nitrate test kit. It was there that they stated that you should hit bottle number 2 against your palm or a hard surface. They also recommended shaking bottle 2 for at least one minute.

I always shake bottle 2 for about a minute, put 10 drops from bottle 1 into the vile, shake vile, shake bottle 2 for 30 seconds, add 10 drops to vile, shake vile for on minute. Then I ice down my arm like a baseball pitcher!

I was actually just researching nitates before reading this post. Live plants will lower nitates. (Do you have live plants?) I'm kinda hoping you'll figure out why your nitrates are dropping, so you can share that info with me!

Birdo

Hmm interesting Jdhef, in the instructions it says to shake the bottle # 2 for 30 seconds, not one minute. It also doesn't say to hit it on a hard surface, these all would be helpful hints that they should reprint in the instruction manual.

So you shake bottle number 2 first. Add 10 drops of bottle number 1, which you didn't shake. Then you shake the vile for 5 seconds. Then shake bottle number 2 again? for 1 minute, then add 10 drops of bottle number 2...shake vile for 1 minute. Right?

I wasn't sure because in paragraph two you said to shake bottle number 2 for 30 seconds like I did on top of 1 minute?

My tank seems to be stubborn with the readings on nitrites. I did a 50% water change yesterday waited a couple hours, then tested the water. It still had the same reading of between 0 and .25 nitrates. I will do another water change today and see if it helps...wow this is a long and hard process!

Since I am such a beginner with fish, I chose not to have any live plants to add to the confusion. You probably can't have as many fish in the tank with them in the equation anyway. And I wouldn't want that. Also, I just figured plastic floating plants will do for now. So live plants cannot be the reason for the nitrates lowering...however the only thing I can think that maybe could be a factor is the pH down solution that I use to make the ph 7.5, supposedly the ph mollies and platies thrive at? No matter how hard this solution works it only gets down to 7.8. I stopped using this a couple days ago. It seems useless because the ph always rebounds in a few days anyway. That's the only thing I put into my tank that might alter things...though it doesn't say anything about lowering nitrates.

I will have to download a picture of my tank to show you. I think it is unique because it has a linden mat insead of gravel and it looks pretty cool! I also knew that since my water is very stubborn when it comes to high PH, I chose mollies because they like higher ph. That way I don't have to worry too much about adjusting it. So it's no big deal that the ph down solutoin doesn't work anyway.

My molly momma is getting yellow stripes across her sides, I guess that means she is maturing and turning a different color? She is also pregnant, and I heard that horizontal stripes on betta fish mean stress...could this be true with mollies as well?

Do I have to worry about water hardness for mollies, platies, glass catfish, or dwarf gourami? I believe I do have pretty hard water. I can tell that without any test. If this is a problem how can I lower it, what solution would you recommend. Some factors that might be worth noting, my molly is pregnant and my ghost catfish has some sort of either bacterial slime on its body or lymphocytis. Thanks again everyone!

jdhef

Basically, I shake and pound bottle 2 for one minute, then follow the directions from the back of the card. So bottle 2 gets shaken for 30 seconds after adding the drops from bottle 1.

I don't think live plants would limit you on how many fish you can have, but I have all plastic plants also and do not know much about live plants.

I wouldn't worry about your Ph. Fish will adapt to the Ph in your tank. What they cannot adapt to is fluctuating Ph levels. I have Odessa Barbs that are supposed to like a Ph of 6-7 and my Ph is 7.6-7.8 (I'm colorblind and reading those charts is a little challenging). and they are doing just fine.

I don't know too much about fish and water hardness, so I can't be any help on that...sorry.

And yeah, get some pictures posted if you can, I'd love to see your tank.

Birdo

Thanks again jdhef! Will do!

Birdo

Well here's a quick update, I hate to post this twice, but I am hoping someone will help me quickly...My tank parameters were looking fine until I put 3 tablespoons of garlic in my tank to help my ghost fish...Now my ammonia level is up to .25 from 0, my nitrates are the same and my nitrites are the same...and my ph is down to 7.8. Apparently garlic is acidic because my tap water is naturally 8.0... Should I change the tank immediately or let it sit for tonight. I literally just did this 30 minutes ago.

Shawnie

id do a water change...in my 75 gal, I only put about a tsp so maybe you used too much...and yes garlic is acidic...id do the water changes for the ammonia readings tho not so much the ph...fish addapt well as long as its not a huge difference...

Birdo

Sheesh...well Dino was way off with those estimates...I don't even cook with 3 tablespoons of garlic...Between the garlic and the extra aquarium salt in my tank I could have an Italian cuisine party if I add 1 box of angel hair noodles or lingini...

Ok how much water should I change? another 50%? Does this mean I will have to re-cycle the tank??!!!

Shawnie

if dino gave u those ammounts, im sure they are fine...hes brilliant at fish keeping so maybe it was the 3 fish you added to change the ammonia..the bio load couldnt keep up...but either way, id deffinately do 50% again daily until you have no ammonia...did you find some prime? that will lock it down for 24 hours..

Birdo

I didn't add any fish yet Shawnie, it's all how I left it. The only different thing that was done to the tank was the garlic. Plus the whole room smells like it! The whole tank wasn't ready for the 3 fish, so I didn't put them in. It wasn't through the cycle yet.

Shawnie

hmm well the tank is in a mini cycle for whatever reasons...strange...but the water changes should fix that up ....

Birdo

Ok...here we go again. *sigh* Anyway I got the directions from my thread about my ghostfish having lymphocytis. He said a teaspoon to a tablespoon per 10 gallons.

Well, I changed the tank...Now I have the readings of between 0 and .25 for ammonia very close to 0, nitrogen 0, and nitrate still 5... Does this mean I have to re-cycle the tank? I

n the meantime, my whole room still smells like garlic. My tank needs either a breathmint or to be put over a huge stove to cook some noodles along with it...Good thing my tank or any of the inhabitants don't have a date tonight. Kissing would be awkward with garlic breath...

I think the only way I can get rid of that smell is to change the filter cartridge, but I wait and see what everyone thinks first about my cycle being hopeless (starting over from scratch) before I change my cartridge...