eepruls

I just started a fishless cycle with pure ammonia today (Tuesday Feb. 12/08). I added two teaspoons to a 10 gallon tank and an hour later the first ammonia reading was 8 mg/L! Obviously this is really high. Did I add too much? In that case, how much should I be adding? Should I add more ammonia to the tank or leave it for now and start testing for nitrites?

What should be my next step?

griffin

if it were me, i would just leave it. you'll just be ready for a lot higher fish load when you start up.

i think you added a lot more than needed (if i recall correctly, it was on the order of drops per gallon)

susitna-flower

If you will click on the link at the top of the page to the article on the nitrogen cycle, and look under Option 3 , fishless cycle using ammonia, it will give you step by step directions.

eepruls

Hi, I've read that page and there's only a couple of sentences about adding ammonia. It says to just keep adding it until you start getting nitrites. I've added ammonia and I've got a high reading. Should I keep adding the ammonia with such a high reading until I get some nitrites or stop and let the ammonia go down (while nitrites go up)? Can you add too much ammonia to start the process?

susitna-flower

We must not be reading the same article. I referred you to the link so I wouldn't have to type it out. Sorry, I'm being lazy. So this is exactly what it says.

Option 3.
Use 100% pure ammonia. Using a dropper add 5 drops of ammonia per 10 gallons of aquarium water. Continue this process DAILY until you get nitrite readings with your test kit. Once you detect nitrites you should add only 3 drops per 10 gallons of aquarium water. Continue this process DAILY until you get nitrate readings with your test kit. Do a 30% water change, and your tank will be ready to add fish.

My addition to this is....your fully cycled tank readings should be 0 - ammonia
0 - nitrites
5 + nitrates.

I always do a 50% water change instead of 30%, and only add a couple fish per week, as the bacteria is still low, and needs time to adjust to each fish addition.

* Edit: 2 tsp = 180 drops, or enough for approximately a 360 gallon tanks first dose.

To start off with 2 tsp of ammonia was a lot, not what we recommend, but at this point I really can't say what it will do. IF you start getting nitrite readings, use the recommended 3 drops per 10 gallons until you get nitrates. You are trying to feed, not kill the bacteria. Ammonia is an antibacterial and large doses can be harmful. I just don't know what that point is.
Good Luck

eepruls

Yikes! I had read this article before I started my cycling (http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_fishless.php). In it, it says "Start small, only a couple of teaspoons for a small tank around 40 liters (10G), or use about a 1/2 cup for large tanks around 200 liters. Let it sit for an hour or so to allow the ammonia to circulate. Test. Your goal is to get a reading of about 3 to 5 mg/L (or PPM, it's the same)."

I think teaspoons was an error and he really meant drops. Should I remove some water from the tank to bring the ammonia down and then continue adding DROPS? It's really high already and I don't want to add even more ammonia to kill any bacteria starting to grow so would taking out water bring it down to a safer level so that I can continue with drops? Or should I stop adding ammonia and leave it be and see if nitrites start to show?

What should be my next move?! Ahhhhhhhhh!

eepruls

I took out some water and replaced it. I think it's best to get the ammonia down to a more reasonable level and then continue from there.

eepruls

Where do you get an eyedropper? Is there a trick to get drops of ammonia without one?

calinb

I've found that home cleaning ammonia varies considerably from vendor to vendor (I've bought three different jugs of the stuff!). None of them had sufficient strength to reasonably use an eye dropper. I used 1/8 tsp to 1 tbs measuring cups and quickly gave up on counting hundreds of drops from my eye dropper.

I've read many fishless tank cycling online testimonies and tried to base my own approach on others, in an attempt to accelerate the process even further. I cycled a tank of similar size to your tank in a week, but I also had some "seed" gravel and a sponge filter from my other recently cycled tank. Seeding is not essential for the ammonia method, but it may help to get the bacteria colonies started, rather than waiting for them to drift in on a breeze.

If you're interested in trying my approach, start reading my posts here:

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aq...tml#post314175

(or scroll up and read them all). Also read the link I provided for the "recipe" that I modified.

You must determine how much ammonia to add for YOUR bottle of ammonia. Also, read my notes on surfectants/sufectants. (I've seen both spellings on bottles of ammonia.) Avoid them and also shake the bottle with some air in it to test for their presence.

I would not worry about 8ppm. Others and I have shot for 5ppm. Who knows--8 ppm might work faster than 5 ppm!. Obviously there's a toxicity limit--even for the bacteria but, from what I've read, it's higher than 8ppm. I'd shoot for maintaining 5ppm continuously for a week (you'll have to dose more than once per day). It helps to be good at arithmetic and fractions to maintain a target concentration of ammonia. The tank will be able to clear the ammonia much sooner and much more quickly than the nitrites--even once it's fully cycled. For this reason, you should discontinue dosing after about a week (or earlier, if you've been vigilant about 5ppm at all times and want to set a new record and you feel lucky) and wait 24 hours to give the NOBs time to complete their job of eliminating nitrites, if they've spun up to speed yet. After 24 hours, if the water tests 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, it has cycled and you must now change out as much water as possible from the tank because the water is now off the scale with nitrAtes. My nitrAte levels were so high that a 50% change (halving the nitrAtes) would still have left dangerous nitrAte concentrations after my aggressive one week program. I did, however, retain the water in the gravel and the HOB fillter. To be safe, test for nitrAtes after your big water change and then stock the tank fully if the nitrAte levels are safe (I had 10ppm after my big change--just from what remained in the gravel and filter).

My ammonia dosing technique is the most aggressive I've ever seen, but I didn't go beyond the maxium concentrations others have used--I simply increased the dosing schedule to keep the concentrations high, until I was ready to check the cycling status of the tank. With frequent dosing of ammonia, you'll never see the nitrites fall (and they'll soon be "off the scale" of your test kit) unless you wait 24 hours since the last dosing. It's really an eye opener when they DO fall. The API test kit went from the deepest "off the scale" purple to the nice pale blue in 24 hours. It's actually mind blowing, after days of seeing it get pumped up so high.

Let us know how things work out and how you get there.

-Cal

P.S. In my next post, I'll discuss some ramifications of an analysis I read in a paper on water changes vs. nitrAtes equilibrium. I need to find the pdf link to the paper, first. It's fascinating and useful reading! Teaser: in many typical water change scenarios, nitrAtes continue to increase for weeks or even MONTHS before equilibrium is reached! Many people think their nitrAte levels are stable, when in fact, they are increasing so slowly that they don't notice it and they drop their guard. Months later, long after the aquarist grows weary of checking their water for nitrAtes, the levels are sky high, despite frequent water changes and reasonable fish loads.

calinb

It's here:
Richard Taylor White Paper -- "Water Changing and Nitrates"

eepruls

Wow! That's a long post! When I get some nitrates I'll definitely re-read it! I need some nitrites first though.

After the water change I'm at about 6ppm ammonia and no nitrites. I've stopped adding ammonia because wouldn't that just keep making it stronger and it's already at 6? I did a water change to bring it down already so adding more ammonia doesn't make sense. I'll use drops (if I can find an eyedropper) and continue adding like 2 or 3 drops when nitrites appear. Is this a good idea? Or should I continue adding the 5 drops/day of ammonia like option 3 says and then reduce to 2 or 3 drops when I get nitrites?

Anyways, I've got 6ppm of ammonia in the tank right now and I didn't add any ammonia for the last few days.

calinb

Yes--until the bacteria begin processing the ammonia, it would just make it stronger and there's no need to do that.

There are many "recipes" that will work but you should add however much ammonia it takes to hit the recipe ammonia target--it may be drops or it may be teaspoons or even tablespoons. It depends on the strength of YOUR ammonia solution and the amount of water in your tank.

My personal method is to stick a Seachem ammonia monitor disc into the tank (or you could just do several API tests / day ) and watch for the color to change from the highest purplish "altert" level, which is where it should be at your present 6ppm. As soon I notice the color changing, I re-dose back up to 5 ppm or so. The idea is to keep the ammonia at 5 ppm for as much of the time as possible. My schedule only permitted checking the Seachem disk and adding the ammonia about twice per day, but I was able to keep ammonia in the tank most of the time this way. (Unlike nitrites, a 5ppm ammonia level will eventually get processed very quickly by the bacteria--perhaps in only a few hours.)

Even though the ammonia will soon be effectively and quickly processed by the AOB (ammonia oxidizing bacteria) I would continue to dose the tank to 5ppm to keep the nitrite levels increasing AND keep the AOB at a healthy and high level. (We don't want to starve the AOB out or reduce their numbers.) You'll probably never see nitrites drop using a normal test kit (nitrites will soon be off the scale) with continuous 5ppm ammonia so don't even both to test for nitrites (except to just see they've started) unless you dilute the test water with a measured proportion of known nitrite free water to keep the nitrite concentration within the range and scale of the test kit. You may have to do some arithmetic if you're interested in doing this but it's not really necessary to even know the nitrite levels during dosing--it will simply be a good sign that things are progressing when you first see the nitrite level shoot upward. The advantage of knowing the actual (and very high) nitrite numbers is you tell when they start dropping. When they drop, you could stop dosing the tank with the ammonia for 24 hours and check to see if you are "done."

But without knowing the actual nitrite numbers and, thus, detecting the drop in nitrite levels, you can simply just wait a while. Based on my roughly 2x per day dosing schedule, I wouldn't stop dosing with ammonia for at least a week. After about a week, stop for 24 hours and test for ammonia and nitrites. If they are zero, the tank has fully cycled and you could also test for nitrates, but they will be off the scale so you might as well do a 100% water change (just leave water undisturbed in the filter and gravel) and then test for nitrates. If they nitrates test low enough (they probably won't be zero--just from the nitrates contained in the filter and gravel water) add your fish.

If the ammonia and nitrites are not zero after a 24 hours hiatus from the ammonis dosing, start back up with the 5ppm dosing for a few more days. Wait 24 hours, recheck, etc.

Great--no need to add any until it begins to drop. Without a "seed" from another tank, it might take a few days for the ammonia level to drop. Once it begins to drop, bring it back up with an appropriate dose of ammonia and you're on your way!

eepruls

That sounds good! When I see a drop, I'll start adding again. I obviously have the strong ammonia that's pure because when I added teaspoons it went off the scale. I'll be safer with drops!

Thanks for your all your help by the way. I really appreciate all your typing! I will update this post when I start to see the ammonia drop!

eepruls

I've got nitrites! It has been exactly one week since I started and I have 0.25ppm nitrites. For the last few days I've also continued to add 5 drops of ammonia using a fountain straw. The ammonia is at 4 or 5ppm.

I just keep adding 5 drops of ammonia correct? Or should I lower it to 3? At this point the nitrites will continue to rise and the ammonia should start to decrease, correct?

This is kind of fun actually! LOL

calinb

WoooWhooo!

Most people would lower the ammonia now (or soon). That's not what I do! I'd just keep adding ammonia, as often as required, to keep it up at 5 ppm.

My plan is to keep the AOB colony up in numbers using the same ammonia concentration that's been working up 'til now. This will cause your nitrite to increase rapidly and, hopefully, send it right off the scale within few days. This is good--to get the nitrites up high now too and grow a large NOB colony as quickly as possible. Based on my experiences, you could keep the ammonia at 5 ppm or so for another week or so and then stop completely for 24 hours and check your ammonia and nitrite levels. If they're not both zero, start up with 5 ppm dosing again for a few more days and then re-check. You're looking for zero ammonia and zero nitrites but you need to give the bacteria more time to process nitrites than ammonia. (That's the reason for the 24 hour wait before checking nitrites.) You will probably see your tank processing ammonia down to zero in only a few hours, very soon, if you bother to look for it..

You'll need a water change after any ammonia fishless cycling program anyway. Who cares if you end up with more nitrAtes in the end--just change all the water out (except don't disturb the gravel and filter), as I describe above.

Thanks for the update and keep us posted. I'm very interested in how well it works out for you.

eepruls

If you build up colonies of bacteria for more than the future bio-load of the fish tank, wouldn't they just die off? I mean, one little betta ain't gonna be producing that much ammonia!

calinb

Yes--I think they will, but I noticed that an abundance of bacteria food seems to accelerate the cycling process. I don't know by how much, but it's clearly faster than very little ammonia--or only the amount of ammonia one betta probably produces.

eepruls

Tons to eat so they reproduce like crazy!

I'm at 2ppm nitrites.

calinb

That's good progress, but, at 2 ppm, you're not even off the API test kit scale yet--hehe. If you keep the ammonia at ~5 ppm, you'll be off the nitrites scale in another day or two, I predict. I think my nitrites went off the scale at about the half-way mark of my 1-week cycling program.

I'm sure the bacteria population growth dynamics vary a lot, for many reasons, but one approach you might try is to note the day when the nitrites reach/exceed 5 ppm (top of the API color strip scale), then keep up the ammonia treatment for the same number of days as it took to reach 5 ppm nitrite. Then stop for the requisite 24 hours to check for zero ammonia and nitrites. You can always check sooner, but your ammonia level will probably fall to zero in 24 hours, if you stop adding ammonia--even now. It's the NOB colony you're waiting on now! (The AOB colony is probably fully "online" now--you're just waiting for the NOB colony to come up to speed.)

eepruls

Just took a complete set of readings.

Ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrites: >5ppm (slightly)
Nitrates: 5ppm
pH: 7.6

I have been adding 4 or 5 drops of ammonia each day. This was the first time I took a nitrates reading so I'm not sure if the nitrates were there to begin with or if the nitrite eating bacteria are starting up. Ammonia has been dropping quickly.

calinb

Yeah--it doesn't take too long to get to the point where you see the ammonia falling quickly after each dosing. If you have a Seachem disc, you can almost watch the color change in front of your eyes as the ammonia is consumed!

Your bacteria probably produced the nitrate--5 ppm is a lot of nitrate right out of the tap!

I have a 5.5 gal I'm setting up as a plant nursery but I figure I might as well cycle it. I put some plants in and overdosed a bit this morning but I'll just leave it and I'm already getting nitrates only 1.5 days into it.

ammonia: 16 ppm
nitrite: nearly 0.5 ppm
nitrate 5-10 ppm
temp: 79F
pH: ? (probably around 7.2)

calinb

50 hour 5.5 gal log:

ammonia: 15 ppm
nitrite: 1+ ppm
nitrate 10 ppm

With these numbers at the 2-1/2 day mark, I predict this lil' guy will fully cycle in under a week!

I just discovered that these high ammonia levels seem to be prematurely wearing out my Seachem disc. Its sensitivity has become greatly reduced and it might be a good idea to remove and fully rinse the disc, when continuous monitoring isn't required.

eepruls

Still adding 4 drops of ammonia a day. Ammonia has continued its drop and is nearing 0. Nitrite has started to drop. Nitrates have exploded from 5 - 20 ppm. pH is still high at 7.6.

Latest readings are:

Ammonia: <0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 2 ppm
Nitrate: 20 ppm
pH: 7.6

calinb

I've never had Bettas but I now have chocolate gouramis and they come from the same native water. I tried this:
http://www.oceannutrition.com/produc...4.html&head=44
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...vendor%3D.html

but found that it didn't lower pH much so I ordered some actual Indian almond leaves from Amy on Ebay. I was also concerned that chocolate gouramis might not like the NaCl and CaCl2 in the extract. I've heard they do better without added salts. I got the nice looking "grade A+" leaves in "tiny" size from Amy. Actually, they are still pretty large at 5" plus! I'm completely happy with the purchase. Of course you must also enjoy the native amber/brown look of dark water to be happy with this solution.

I also have a yeast CO2 system so it's easy to lower pH by a couple of points.

BTW, based on my experience, when a tank is "pumped up" with AOBs using high ammonia fishless cycling, 0.25 ppm ammonia will disappear in about an hour! Of course, you probably don't need that much AOB for a single Betta.

I think my tank, that I "overpumped" to 16 ppm ammonia, might be finished cycling. The ammonia was nearly zero this AM so I'll wait 24 hours and see if the nitrite concentration also goes to zero. If not, I'll dose it back up to 5 ppm ammonia and keep it there for the remainder of the week.
-Cal

eepruls

The water coming out of the tap is neutral at 7. I'm not sure why it's higher in the tank. I took out a shell that I had in there.

How long does it take for nitrites to start to fall? They've been the same for a while now. Ammonia is at 0 and I'm still adding it.

calinb

Yeah--the shell (calcium carbonate--CaCO3) could have been the reason. The dissolving shell would tend to raise both GH and KH. The increase in KH (alkalinity) will tend to "resist" low pH and the pH will rise above 7 toward some buffer value. I'm not sure what it is for CaCO3 (need to dust off the old chem textbook) but I think the pH equilibrium value for baking soda (which only increases KH) is 8.2.
The time it takes for the nitrites to drop seems to take longer than the time it takes to effectively process ammonia.

eepruls

I've had nitrites in the tank for 2 weeks now and they're still the same. Every time I take a reading it's the same vibrant purple colour. It's taking forever to see any drop! I'm still adding 3 drops of ammonia and get 0ppm readings for that. It's just the stupid nitrites that are stagnant. No wonder people just put fish in on day one! LOL.

calinb

From everything I've seen in my tanks and what I've heard, it takes much, much longer for the nitrites to go away than the ammonia. It seems like you are stuck but, if there's a good level of nitrite in there, it'll suddenly disappear one day! One day it'll be deep purple and the next day it'll be the nice blue! That's how it's been for me, anyway. Seems like you have <some> nitrAte so the NOBs are in there. Just gotta wait for them to prosper.

My 5.5 gal isn't cycling all that fast either. The 16 ppm ammonia didn't seem to help at all so I'm back down to my usual 5 ppm ammonia, which disappears overnight, but the nitrite is sticking around in my tank, like yours. I have about 5-10ppm nitrAte so I have some NOBs too. Just waiting for them to take off. It's been just over a week, as I recall.

-Cal

eepruls

I'll be very excited the day I see the nitrites go away! The ammonia was definitely the faster stage.

eepruls

I just did a complete set of readings on Day 23 (Mar. 6/08) and to my amazement, nitrItes are almost gone! It's amazing how fast that happened because yesterday they were still way up there. I was shocked when the test tube didn't go vibrant purple. It's light blue with a very slight purple tinge. They are definitely below 0.25ppm now. NitrAtes are reading at 20ppm. I think I'm almost done!