choochiegirl

I can think of no other reason for my tank to be doing a mini AGAIN. Started this tank end of May and it does not want to settle down at all. I have been testing pretty much daily and doing water changes to protect the fish I have in there. My readings as of the end of june was 0 ammonia, .25 nitrites and 10 nitrates. I added some seeded gravel with some new fish to see if I could get the nitrate to disappear too and my tank went wonky
July beginning:
Ammonia Nitrites Nitrates
.25 .5 0
1.0 .5 0
.5 .25 0
1.0 .25 0
.5 0 0
1.0 0 0
.25 0 0

It goes on like this for most of the months, nitrite will finally go to .5 then nitrites to 5 but then at that point the ammonia goes to 2.0 and i have to do a water change and the nitrites & nitrates go to 0 again and stay that way for a week. Today ammonia is at 1.0, nitrite & nitrates are both at 0 and that has been the reading for a week.
I have not added any decos, only gravel vacced once cuz it was so nasty I could see it, and only vacced 1/2 the tank. I had 2 fish die mid july and replaced them the next day to the bioload wouldn't change and mess it up more

What am I doing wrong?

sirdarksol

I presume you're talking about the 30g you've got in your tagline, and with the fish that are listed there.

What kind of test kit are you using?
By this point, you should have some sort of nitrate reading, and all I can think of is that the test kit is messed up, at least in that aspect.
If you're using a liquid kit, are you shaking the bottles before you use them? (I think one of them has to be really shaken up before use)

One more thing, just to kind of help keep things under control while you figure this out. Then, once you have them figured out, you'll have a useful habit already built. When you're feeding your fish, count out one flake or pellet for each fish in the tank. Feed them. Watch them and make sure they all get a mouthful. If so, they've been fed. If not, don't add any more, next time just vary how you feed them so they all get some. (When Miyamoto was in my community tank, I had to put one flake off to the side so my glass fish could get a bite) If you've got bottom feeders, don't feed them until you're turning the lights out, and only drop one pellet or a portion of a wafer in. I'd only feed the bottom feeders every other day, as they're probably getting other food from the gravel. This will severely reduce the amount of decomposing food in the tank, and is also good for the fish.

choochiegirl

yup it's the one in my tag line.
I use the api liquid kits for everything and have read how difficult the nitrate #2 bottle can be, i smack it against the table and make sure i follow all directions. I have has nitrate in the past, but it disappears. i had a reading of 5 for a few days last week, but it disappeared after a water change

I only do the water changes when the levels get high, ammonia over 1 and my fish act strange

i will cut back more on the feeding & see how it goes. The tetras won`t go after anything except flakes, they seem scared of the pellets and wafers, but the guppies really love those!

choochiegirl

is there a test for Chlorine and Chloramines ? i use Prime to treat my water before it goes in and I'm pretty sure it's similar to Amquel+. The fish tht are in there now seem pretty hardy, the lfs won't take them back as some of them i have had for over a month, only the corys are new

Luniyn

This isn't exactly correct. Changing the water in your tank won't remove much (if any) of the good bacteria from your tank. There isn't a lot of good bacteria just floating around in your water at any given time. It is in your substrate, on your decorations, and mostly in your filter. Vacuuming your gravel can remove some of your good bacteria, and changing out your filter while cycling is a major no-no that will certainly remove the good majority of your good bacteria. Doing water changes will only decrease the amount of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in your tank. During a cycle, having less ammonia and nitrite means there is less "food" for the good bacteria to eat. So yes that in effect slows down the cycle a bit, but when you have fish in the tank, it is a necessary precaution. During my cycle I changed out the water daily during the ammonia cycle and 2 times a day during the nitrite cycle since I was cycling with fish in the tank.

I know that we've already gone over the above Choochiegirl, but I was just responding to the post I quoted. As to your tank, the Prime will remove all of the chlorine and chloramines so don't worry about those. Have you been using any "cycling" products like Cycle, Stress Zyme, etc. (anything other then Bio-Spira)? What kind of filter do you have on the tank and have you been using the stock parts or home-made filters?

sirdarksol

Wow. Just a touch snarky.
Your post has a lot of really good points, but one fallacy.
You say that we're leaving the tank to do as it would in nature, but the way we set up our aquariums is nowhere near the balance that occurs in a natural water system. There is far more fish per gallon of water than there is in a lake, stream, river, or pond, and that fish is dumping a lot of waste into the system. Because of this, unless you are using a fish that can a) handle a higher quantity of ammonia (like the danio) and b) you don't really care about, leaving the tank to sit isn't a good idea. This is why I prefer cycling the tank without any fish. I can't bring myself to not care about any of the fish I buy, and if I bought something like a Danio, I wouldn't want to keep it, anyway. I just add used filter media from one of my other tanks now, then add a bit of food to put some ammonia into the water.

You're definitely correct that most of the nitrifying products out there don't work. Actually, it's not so much that the bacteria starve in the bag/box/bottle. They pick bacteria that build spores for these kinds of products, and spores can live for months or years (sometimes even decades), as they're in a form of stasis. However, the bacteria that produce spores are all terrestrial, so they end up suffocating in water. They reduce the pollutants in a tank for awhile, reducing the amount that the growing colony can eat, then they die off, decaying and releasing even more pollution into the water.
The only one that is believed to truly work (at least, by the more experienced people around here) is Bio-Spira, which does expire after a relatively short amount of time, but contains the right kinds of bacteria.

sgould

Only a touch?

Honestly, Luniyn's post was in no way disprespectful and was offered in a good faith effort to help another member with a problem. Further, what he was pointing out is correct. It did not warrant a sarcastic flaming in response.

choochiegirl

Wow no internet for a day and look what happens!!

To Luniyn: I did use Cycle back in May to start my tank, before I realized that it did nothing for me,unfortunately we can't get bio-spira here in Canada. I have a whisper 30-60 HOB filter. I have not changed anything of the original filter materials, just swished it in the discarded tank water. I just had a thought tho, when I do a water change, the filter empties itself of water. Would this exposure to air cause the bacteria to die? I try to re-fill as quick as possible, but the water change takes approx 1/2 hour from start to finish

To MelissaF672: I appreciate your answers but not your tone. Yes, everyone is entitled to share their opinions and experiences, but if you do not agree with them, there is no need for others to be flamed just for sharing their thoughts. I find there is no absolute wrong or right, what works for some may not work for others, and leave it at that.

It is not my intention to cycle with fish. My tank was cycled, then I added fish and things went wonky from there. I am trying to get ideas of the cause so they don't have to suffer. I do my water changes to protect my fish, my investment. I understand that it may prolong the cycling, but i prefer that over killing them. I listen to all that is said, but ultimately I choose what advice to give, if i mess up, it's my fault, & leave it at that

sgould

No one is debating whether water changes will slow the cycle down. They will. The question, before you decided to get snide and rude, was whether or not that is because the water change removed the bacteria itself, or just the ammonia/nitrites that the bacteria needs to eat. The answer is that bacteria live on surfaces, not free-floating in the water. Therefore, water changes remove the ammonia/nitrites, NOT the bacteria itself to any significant degree. If you are in disagreement with that statement, please say so in a reasonable, non-insulting manner, and I will be happy to post supporting links.

That aside, the question now is...why do you feel it necessary to conduct a conversation in the disrespectful and insulting way you are? Debate and disagreement are fine. But it can be done without the insulting attitude exhibited here:


I do not question your knowledge or ability to keep an aquarium, and I am sure you have a lot of information to share to help those with questions. I am just asking, nicely: Please, keep it civil.

M

WOW! I am truly shocked at the rudeness of MelissaF672. I have read more posts than I have posted myself and this thread is getting stickier by each every post. I'm infamous for playing Devil's Advocate and being sarcastic, but personal attacks are far different.

MelissaF672, why do you feel the need to rudely challenge everything Lunilyn has said? It was my impression that this is a forum of opinions made by people wanting to help others through experience and knowledge. It is also the choice (and responsibility) of every person to take the information and decide if they want to employ it and/or research it further. What purpose does that amount of sarcasm resolve? In my opinion, MelissaF672, you could be right as rain, but all you did by posting your questions that way was to lose credibility and respect.

Choochiegirl, I hope your cycling ends and that you start to see some nitrates. I can't imagine how frustrating that must be!

Luniyn, keep up the posts. I have read MANY of yours and respect your thoughts.

-M

COBettaCouple

MelissaF672 - not only are you being completely rude without any need or cause, but you're wrong. sgould has got it right. The nitrifiers needed to make nitrification happen colonize on surfaces. What little there is in the water is on it's way to finding a surface to live on as quickly as possible, constantly replacing the dying bacteria as the life cycle completes for them. So when you take water out, you're removing an insignificant amount of them compared to the population existing in the tank.
All surfaces in the aquarium offer a potential home to the community of aerobic bacterial that metabolize ammonia finally to nitrate. The uppermost surfaces of the substrate are a prime location for these populations
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/doc...t/nitcyc.shtml

The reason for not doing water changes during a fishless cycle is NOT because of nitrifiers being removed, but because of toxins (ammonia & nitrites) being removed:
Q: Will changing the water lengthen the time of the cycle?
A: It is true that partial water changes decrease the level of ammonia and nitrites, which in turn triggers less growth of the bacteria that feed on them. http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/bi...gencycle_3.htm

I would suggest that you refresh yourself on the rules of the forum: http://www.fishlore.com/Forum/index.php?topic=249.0 before offering up a big serving of sarcasm, rudeness and hostility. The other members posting in this thread not only were correct, but weren't deserving of abuse.

Luniyn

MelissaF672 please read this websites post on the subject. It might clear up a few misconceptions you have on where the bacteria lives in fish tanks. Also, think about the parts of the filter and why there is a sponge in the filter, or why there are bio-balls or some other "media" in the filter at all other then the mechanical filter that is there just to clean the water. That media is there because the good bacteria needs a place to hold on to in order to grow and multiply. You also mentioned about being told not to do a large water change because it will cause a mini-cycle... I'm sorry, but no I've never been told that. In fact as long as you keep the media wet in your tank, you could change out 100% of your water and not see the slightest mini-cycle occur. Again this is because there isn't a large amount of good bacteria in the water and also why fish stores sell substrate from cycled tanks to help you cycle your tank and not just water from their tanks. Now of course I wouldn't recommend doing a 100% water change with fish in the tank, but not because it will cause a mini-cycle. The reason is because this will change the current condition of the water too drastically for the fish and send them into shock. If they die, it's not because a mini-cycle occurred, it's because their environment changed drastically. Small water changes are always recommended over large ones when fish are in the tank. But as I also mentioned, during my cycle (with fish) I did a water change daily during the ammonia part of the cycle and 2 times daily during the nitrite part of the cycle. I still cycled normally and have not ever had a trace of a mini-cycle occur. As to my question about the cycle "helpers", I didn't recommend using them (I have made numerous posts against them, like this one here) I simply asked if they had been used at all. That would have led me to my next comment about not using them and trying things without using them and quite possibly cleaning out the filter media to make room for the correct good bacteria to grow.

Choochiegirl, in regard to the filter, 20 minutes is about what you have before the good bacteria start to die off when not submerged in water. I have a 1/2 Gal bottle that I fill with tap water and treat with Prime and I use this to wet the good bacteria during my water change. I just pour it into the filter till it starts to flow out the outflow. This will submerge them enough until you can get the filter going again, but it's ok for them to get a little air. So about 10 minutes in is when I give them that hit of water, if for some reason I need more time I save some water to pour in again. In your filter, the 30-60, that is the one with the 2 filter cartridge areas right? With 2 cartridges I would think you have enough bio-media in there to support a good colony, but if you would like to increase your surface area you can try one of these from BIO3. I use this in my Whisper 20 and the second sponge it provides (along with that black one you already have) really gives you a lot of surface area for the good bacteria to grow. I can change out the mechanical part of my filter whenever I want and not worry about a mini-cycle occurring. Also if you don't want to use the carbon filled packs it comes with, you can just get something likethis filter cloth and cut it to fit. Then you just rinse that mechanical filter pad every once and a while to keep it clean and can keep it till it starts to fall about before you replace it. Makes it very cost effective. From what I remember and have discussed with you in other posts about your tank, I think you really are on the right track. See if keeping your filter wet like I mentioned helps keep the good bacteria doing their thing and getting you cycled again. Keep an eye on those ammonia and hopefully nitrite levels soon, and do small water changes as needed to keep the remaining fish you have alive. The other option would be to put them into a temporary tank or bucket with an air stone and feed the main tank to do a fishless cycle. It's not necessary to do that, but it is an option.

sgould

Choochiegirl, did you get enough information to keep going? Sorry your thread got so far off track!

COBettaCouple

well, doing water changes will still get your tank cycled. That article that Luniyn posted a link to is a good one to read over. Is it possible to get a pic of the tank and/or the filter? have you had any algae issues? how much aeration are you running?

choochiegirl

here is the filter http://www.tetra-fish.com/sites/tetr...d=1276&cid=577. 1/2 of the back wall is a bubble wand as well

I have diatoms growing on my silk plants & a small amount growing on my bubble wand. no green algae that I can see

I will definitely try to keep my filter wetter when doing water changes, see if that helps, a good idea Luniyn

Have to say it's been an interesting thread

COBettaCouple

good filter, we have that on the 30g tall and a bubble wand in the back. Diatoms are usually part of a cycled tank.. what we do when changing water and cleaning the tank is unplug the filter after filling a bowl with tank water to put the filter (without the intake tube) in. then we do any cleaning/rinsing we need to on the filter & media with clean treated tap water.

as far as water changes go, even when we were cycling with fish, we weekly cleaned the tank and did a partial water change.

how long have you had the testing kit (can you check for expiration dates on the bottles)? do you have carbon in the filter? how old are the filter bags?

choochiegirl

I will have to figure out how to take the intake tube off. You put the whole thing in there or just the media? i do have carbon in the filter, only been in there a week, I was hoping re-adding it would help my problem, but it didn't. the spinges and the carbon bags are all original, never changed yet, just rinsed in discarded tank water.

The testing kit i have had for 2 months, it's not expired.

I tested this evening
Ammonia 1.0
NitrItes 0
NitrAtes0

*grumbles*

COBettaCouple

you can put just the media in.. the whole filter box is nice, but the media is the most important part.. usually the intake tube will just lift up after you take the box lid off. really odd reading.. maybe from adding the carbon.. try it tommorrow i guess.