SWilkins

I have several kinds of angels but I have three kinds that have sorta runts of the bunch I guess you would say. All of them are at least half the size of their siblings. I know they are eating but I was wondering about putting the three of them in a tank to see if I could help them along and make sure they are getting extra feedings. If they do well with this and I put them back in with the others will there be a territorial battle. All of my angel tanks are species specific so to speak...koi in one tank, calico in one tank, smokie in one tank, sunset in one tank....you get the idea. It sounded like a good plan to me but I just wanted some other opinions to see if anybody else had any other ideas or if you thought this would work okay.

harpua2002

I'd be worried about re-introducing them. If you don't have issues with aggression now, I'd say leave them as they are. There will probably come a time at some point when they will start to pair off and you'll have to rehome them anyway, though.

Butterfly

I personally would separate the larger from the smaller. You know angels are going to get enough to eat so that's not it.
Here is an interesting article about growth inhibitors and fish.
http://www.aquaria.info/index.php?na...&theme=Printer
For years I've heard stories about fish excreting growth inhibitors (biggest and strongest survive) and am not sure what I think. But I do know if I separate sizes or do extra significant water changes my fry are closer to being the same size. So the idea is that something is being removed from the water that keeps some of them from growing as fast.
What do you think?
Carol

JD OSCAR

harpua2002

Fascinating... my juvie angels have always grown at a comparable rate (I kept 4 juvies in a 55 for some time). I had never even thought about that possibility. I bought mine with the intent to form a pair and rehome the others.

Butterfly

55g is a good amount of water and not crowded I take it. Most fry tanks are not that large and being crowded would bring this into play more.
SWilkins does not keep hers in crowded conditions either but it was just a thought. I've done quite a bit of reading about this and find it very interesting. I have been told by other very experienced fish keepers that Nitrates will act as growth inhibitors also.
Carol

COBettaCouple

When we had a batch of angel fry, they varied in size like that by the time they were 4 or 5 months old. They all ate plenty of the best NLS growth pellets and were healthy, just some grew a lot faster.

harpua2002

Yes, I've heard the same. nitrate and dissolved organics. This is why I change so much water (50% weekly for all our FW tanks).

I was just throwing that out there without knowing how large her tank is. I'm not quite sure where to draw the connection about fry tanks; I didn't get the impression that we were talking about one but then again I'm easily confused!

Butterfly

I'm not sure how old all her angels are. I'm sorry if I was confusing. I introduced the growth inhibitors not knowing how long they would have an influence on growth(to what age). The subject fascinates me and basically just wanted to know if she thought it was a possibility.

Carol

SWilkins

I have read the same thing about the growth inhibitors that is why I just did not understand just these three fish. All the different sets 6 calico, 6 smokie, and 4 sunset are in a 55 gal each so that is three tanks. Regular water changes of at least 25% weekly in all my tanks but fry tanks and the begging fish tanks usually get more than 25% and usually an extra change during the week. All water parameters are checked weekly unless there is a problem and they need to be checked more often. All of the angels were gotten when they were juvies. The calicos and smokies were bought at the Atlanta Auction and were between 14-18 weeks of age at that time. Carol the sunsets I got from you at the Spring Gathering. One of the sunsets just looks like it came from a different batch of fry. Of the smokies I have one that is supersized and one that just looks like it has not grown at all it is less than half the size of the other ones (supersize not included). Of the calicos I have one that is less than half the size of the other ones as well. All seem very healthy and are fed regularly with Kens growth meal, Kens super color crumble #2, and Kens premium cichlid pellets 1.5 mm, and some spirulina sticks...these are daily foods. They have weekly frozen blood worms with garlic added and a beefheart mixture that really is my own concoction...finely ground beefheart, chicken heart, chicken liver, peas, spirulina, and multivitamins held together with unflavored gelaten. I had heard everybody bragging so much about the golden pearls that I got some of those and I have tried those just to see if it might help but they really seem too small for them. I also have the four koi angels that I got from Anna at the same time I got the sunsets from Carol, they were about 8 months old if I am not mistaken when I got them and they are all about the same size maybe one is just a bit smaller. Two of these are in a 45-55 gal hex and two are in a 29 gal with the same water changes, food, temp, pH...you name it and I have checked it. They have plenty of live plants to hide in, driftwood, slate rocks. If I am doing something wrong I cannot for the life of me figure it out. Somewhere along the way I am apparently doing something right because one pair of the Koi have laid eggs twice and a pair of smokies have laid once...newbies and they ate them but hey they gotta start somewhere.

I really got these so I could have at least a pair of each of the colors they are just so beautiful to watch together and I have already had some pairing off going on as it is so I really don't think reintroducing them would be a problem...even if they had to be put into one of Tommy's community tanks alone...he has two community tanks and is working on a third now.

I will get done with work about lunch tomorrow and will do another water change and I am going to pull the three runts and put them into a 29 by themselves and see if we get any change. Maybe every other day or daily water changes for them for a while and some extra meals...like I don't feed them enough already...LOL. They do not look or act sickly and they are not being picked on. They come straight to the top with the others when they see me coming whether I have food or not...yep they are all beggers.

I will just keep a check on them and keep you all posted on how things are going and by all means if anybody has any ideas or suggestions please feel free to let me know. I would be glad for any input.

Butterfly

Swilkins- you aren't doing anything wrong. The information about growth inhibiters probably shouldn't have even been introduced into this thread. It is just something I have been reading about and I shared it
If they are in that size tanks they by all means have plenty of room, and I know the water is fine
As for the ones you got from me they could very well be from two different ages of babies
Carol

SWilkins

Well I had been reading about the growth inhibitors a while back so it just went back over what I had already been through in my head.

The calicos and smokies were all the same size when I got them from the auction. The ones I got from you were slightly different sizes to begin with but the little one just has stayed little. I am glad to hear that the angels I got from you could be from two different age groups but the other two are still puzzling me.

Not to mention earlier today (Saturday May 30th) the calicos have laid a slew of eggs. I knew they all had plenty of room and I knew my water was right. I did not mention before that I keep all my tanks between 78 and 84, just because I always have and have never had a problem with it.

I think it puzzles me more than anything because all seem very healthy and definitely eating well there is just a very big size difference in them. I will just keep these three together and do extra water changes and extra feedings and see if it makes any difference. Maybe they are just runts I guess we will find out!

Thanks for all your help!! When you have gone over and over everything and cannot figure it out you just feel like you are missing something. Then it is always great to hear a second opinion just in case. I'll keep you posted.

Butterfly

Good deal!
Just about all animals grow at different speeds. Maybe it's just genetics
Carol

SWilkins

You have a point there. But it can't hurt to have them in their own tank and give them some extra water changes and food. It may not change a thing but I now I really just want to see if I can make a difference...LOL.

Butterfly

Nope won't hurt a thing
Carol

SWilkins

Carol just an update on your babies except for the runt the others are growing like weeds. They all eat like little pigs and beg anytime you go by them. I think their colors get better everyday. These are the smallest ones I have ever brought home and I am really enjoying watching them develop.

Butterfly

LOL they were spoiled before you ever got them Hubby plays games with them He stands at the end of the 55g that has angels in it and they all swim really fast over to where he is and just beg. Then he walks to the other end and they swim like maniacs down to the other end. Soon they are swimming back down the tank as he slowly walks back to the other end. Of Course they are fed very well after all this exercise
Carol

SWilkins

Too funny. I like to get on one end and just see how fast they can get there and it is pretty fast really. I have not tried going from one end to the other...but yes now I will.