pinkfloydpuffer

Ok, so, I was thinking... if a gang valve can let one pump power multiple devices, could a gang valve reversed let many pumps power one device?
So, connect one pump to each of the valve outlets, and connect the one airstone or whatever onto the part where the airpump usually connects? If this would work it could help me alot, as my Tetra Whisper air pump, which is the largest size they make, isn't strong enough to power the flexible bubblewand in my very deep 80g tank.

FoxyGrandpa

yes technically. but what would you need all that power for anyways

pinkfloydpuffer

As I said above... my 80g is very very deep, and the largest air pump that they sell isn't strong enough to combat all that pressure from the deep water.

shadowavenger

It would depend on the volume of air that the tubing can accommodate. if you have too much air being forced through a small space it probably won't work because the resistance of the tubing would be greater than the amount of force the pumps can put out. Think of it like this:

in electricity, you have 3 fundamental theorems, Voltage (force) current (amount of material or energy to be moved) and resistance (the force acting against the movement of material or energy). Look at the setup as the pumps being the batteries, the air being the current, the tubes being the wires (and a source of resistance) and the gang valve as a current node. Hooking an array of pumps into a gang valve basically wires them all in parallel, meaning that all the the force (voltage) they produce is the same but the amount of air (current) is much greater. The resistance of the tubing (wires) hinders the amount of air which can flow through the circuit, and even though you have much more current being produced, the tubing still only allows a certain amount to pass through. In order to overcome the resistance, you have to increase the voltage (force of the air). in electricity, you would wire the batteries in series, meaning that the positive would go to the negative of each battery, and the voltage would go up with the number of batteries you use. Since you would be having all the pumps in parallel, the force created is the same but they can source more current. But since they can't overcome the resistance, you will still get the same amount of air regardless. What you would need to do is to get a pump that has a greater force output to over come the resistance of the tubing and put more air through the tubing. You would most likely have to get a more powerful pump.

V=IR (voltage = current * resistance) or (air pressure = amount of air * resistance of the tubing) Ohms law applied to pneumatics!

Sorry if this is confusing, but I like to express my knowledge of everything when I have the opportunity too! Plus electronics are another one of my many hobbies!

pinkfloydpuffer

Lol, thanks.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a pump that's bigger as of yet....

shadowavenger

Hmm. 50 gallon air compressor set to 150 PSI! Guaranteed to blow all the water out of the tank, and burst the tubing at the same time lol!

pinkfloydpuffer

Lol. We have one of those out in the garage. Don't think my dad would like me using it though

shadowavenger

Lol. Hmm. I wonder if they have devices that you can put inline with the tubing to increase the velocity of the air? Like the nozzle on a hose. If you can increase the velocity of the air it might be strong enough to overcome the pressure of the water.

agabr123

i read that whole thing......and am AGAIN reminded of exactly why i am a liberal arts major.......... *headdesk*

Drew 43920

Electrical resistance is due to the atoms not wanting to give up their outer shell electrons. I don't think the same applies in an air pressure situation.
(See what you started PinkFloydPuffer, LOL)

pinkfloydpuffer

Oh dear lol

shadowavenger

It just applies to the objects tendency to inhibit the flow of matter or energy. With electricity its due to the number of valence electrons but also the number of electrons available to be given up which restricts the amount of current that can pass during a certain period of time, which is why a smaller wire has a larger resistance than a thicker wire. With air its because the diameter of the tubing restricts how many molecules of air can pass through at one time.

Drew 43920

So if PinkFloydPuffer used a larger air line her problem would be solved ?

shadowavenger

possibly. but its not just the airline. the nozzle on the pump itself is a certain diameter, the input nozzle on the bubble stone is a certain diameter, and if a gang valve was used, then the diameters of the nozzles on that would be resistive to the air flow. if all the equipment was made to fit larger diameter connections then it would work. The best thing to do would be to use a higher velocity pump or to install a device to increase air velocity through the tubing, but I don't know if they make those or not.

Drew 43920

Wouldn't 2 pumps increase velocity ?

shadowavenger

no, they would increase the volume of air being pumped or the potential volume of air to be pumped, not the velocity of it moving through the tubes.

Drew 43920

If the Area of the tube is constant and Volume is increased doesn't that result in an increase in Velocity ?

shadowavenger

generally yes, but you are just increasing the speed in which the air is being driven though the pipe, not the volume of air going through it. What pinkfloydpuffer needs is a more powerful force of air to overcome the pressures of the water.

The power rule is P=I*V (Power = Current * Voltage) or in pneumatics (air force = volume of air * velocity of the air)

you can have a low velocity/high volume through the pipe proportional to the amount of air it will allow, or you can have high velocity/low volume also proportional. in order to get enough air pressure to the bubble stone to overcome the water pressure, the overall air force or power has to be increased. a higher velocity may overcome the water pressure but the amount of air being pumped to the bubble stone would be dismal.

Drew 43920

I will sleep on it . Good talking to you.

cerianthus

This goes back long time when i tried to connect two/three air pump as you described (couldnt afford new pumps as i needed when I was a kid) to come to conclusion that unless pumps are creating equal pressure (impossible task to achieve with our available tools)), it wont work. I have learned air will go thru where the least resistance is. W/ your bubblewand in 80G, probably more air will be lost thru the weakest air pump causing burden on the pump/pumps.
What is the model # on the TetraTec Air Pump and height of tank? I believe TetraTec Deep Water, DW96-2 or Rena 400 should be able to drive the wand. Look into piston pump, dont know if still avail.

shadowavenger

it would probably have to be impeller driven since a standard air pump uses a drum type pump which is very inefficient. An impeller would be more like a super charger forcing air through the system.

cerianthus

Like a fan. Most LFS would use such compressor to drive all the tanks. I would doubt if small one is avail to drive one or two tanks. There are also piston type pump by Danner, at least used to be, which will def drive bubblewand.

shadowavenger

essentially the same effect as putting 2 batteries in a parallel configuration with one being weaker than the other. The stronger one would be sourcing current to the weaker battery and less power would be available to the rest of the circuit.

cerianthus

Good analogy!

Toxic

face the facts, you must create a higher pressure at the bubble wand than what the water is at that depth. volume, does nothing without presure. I would google for higher pressure aquarium air pumps

try this http://www.aquariumguys.com/deep-water-air.html

kri$han

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that using a gang valve backwards might be problematic, since many gang valves incorporate "anti-siphons", which are the same as check valves... essentially, they won't allow air (or water) to flow in the opposite direction.



A bigger pump is your only solution.

pinkfloydpuffer

I've pretty much given up on that for now... I've just added a regular small airstone and submerged it only about 6" deep so that there's not too much pressure. Doesn't look as nice, and there's not as much movement, but it functions. Oh well....

shadowavenger

do the bubbles really just stop coming out if you set the stone all the way to the bottom? I would think that would take a couple dozen feet and hundreds of pounds of pressure to completely choke off the air.

Toxic

This pump http://www.aquariumguys.com/renaairpump4.html is kinda pricey but should work. I would measure how deep your aquarium is

snowball

I took about 3 gang valves once n have about 12 tubes. My friends blew in 9 of the tubes wich made a huge bubble inwich evryone got wet o_O