Cichlidelicious

Hello. I was wondering if anyone here has had success with keeping Otocinclus catfish in an African cichlid tank -- mbunas, to be precise. I am considering getting some to hasten the removal of diatoms from my two-month-old aquarium. Being as they do hail from South America, where the pH level is considerably lower than Lake Malawi, would they be able to withstand a pH of 8.0 or higher? I only have a 45 gallon tank, so I am considering this species due to its small size.

Thanks!

Shawnie

o my goodness...IMO they would be a meal...but maybe others have tried it?

I do have a choc pleco in with my africans who keeps it cleaned up but not sure about ottos

Cichlidelicious

As noted previously, my problem is tank size. Anything larger than Otos -- particularly because I'd probably want to get about three of them -- would be too big. Of course, I could just want for the diatoms to naturally die off.

Shawnie

how bad are they? mine look like it should be part of the tank and more normal ...do you have a pic of yours? hopefully angela or another african member could have advice you want to hear but I still think they would be eated

Cichlidelicious

Hello again Shawnie. If by "they" you mean the diatoms, quite bad. Of course, if you consider that I use a local sand substrate, limestone base rock from my back yard, and that our water here is hard and alkaline, it is no surprise that I have such a diatom bloom. However, I suspect that something is going on in the tank, as the diatoms have been looking different the past two days -- more sickly -- and the water has suddenly been filled with a lot of minute particle matter. I am thinking that the recent two water changes are starting to choke their supply of silicates in the water. Maybe.

Shawnie

ahh well im no help I know sorry

I only use ecco complete and rocks for subtrate...do the africans like the sand? I was alwasy afraid of not being able to clean it properly and the deadly gasses ive read about it....could the minute particles be a breakdown of the limestone rocks? I hope you get some help for sure !

EDIT: I moved the post to the african section as I know angela will eventually see it there !

Angela_96

Otos are def way to small and sensitive for the hard high ph water and the mbuna would def have a meal.

I would suggest bristlenose plecos, they stay smallish and will go in a 45g tank no prob. They also will continue to eat algae even when matured unlike most common plecos. My full grown bristlenose pleco pair are 4 inches.

Annadvn

The only algae eaters i have successfully kept with my Mbuna is a 12" long pleco and chinese algae eaters.

The bristlenose we had in their became a snack and as ottos are smaller i would think it would become a hunting game in the tank very quick!

I would purchase a chinese algae eater as they are about the size of a otto when you pick them up from the pet store, they have a bit more street sense about them when it comes to mbuna, also the mbuna don't like it if the CAE gets close when they are bigger and chase them away (our CAE who attacked other fish for their slime coat never got to any of the mbunas, they use to chase him away from them if he even swam near them),

Yes a CAE when it grows will will make more regular water changes as it might over stock your tank a bit, but you should have an over stocked tank anyway for the Mbuna to help prevent aggression. So extra water changes should already be on the schedule. That and a 45g seems a bit small for mbuna, what species and how many do you have in there?

Anna

Cichlidelicious

Shawnie, like many cichlids, African cichlids just LOVE sand! They are constantly chewing on it -- looking for food particles -- and building sand pits for mating and breeding purposes. They heap it up and build tunnels under rocks as well. Mbunas, in particular, love sand, being as they inhabit the rocky and sandy areas of Lake Malawi. The word "mbuna" in fact means "rock dweller" or "rock fish".

Biologically-speaking, I have never had a problem with using sand. However, there are a few things to watch out for, such as scratching your glass if you sand particles in your sponge, or filters clogging up over time with sand. The latter is a minor inconvenience which can easily be remedied with good maintenance procedures.

I suspect that the minute particles are either the dying diatoms themselves -- which can actually float in the water -- or possibly decomposed Hikari pellets. I'm not sure at this time, but I am going to keep an eye on the situation. I thought it might be the sparring mbunas stirring up detritus from the substrate, but this is constant, and there is too much of it in the water for it to be that. The water is clear, not cloudy, but just filled with all of these little particles.

If the diatoms continue to deteriorate on the rocks, then I will be even more convinced that this is what I am now seeing, in which case the filters and water changes should eventually get it all out of the tank.

Cichlidelicious

Hello again Angela. I had considered bristlenose cats, but felt that they would get a little too big for my small tank. I only have a four-foot tank, and it now houses five mbunas which will max out at about 4". Add to that their aggression, and I need to be careful. I am surprised to hear that your cats are full-grown at 4". I had read that they grow to be somewhat larger.

Besides their size, the other point is that I really don't like plecos. I think that they are ugly, and the larger they become, the more aggressive they become as well. I have seen the larger ones eat other fish.

Many years ago when I managed an aquarium design and maintenance business, I had to deal with some very large plecos in some of our display tanks; and with their bony exoskeleton, those monsters were quite challenging for my delicate human hands!

Angela_96

Sand is wonderful in an mbuna tank, one thing I have found really helps is mixing it with fine crushed coral (it keeps the sand from being such a problem with the filters).

How often are you taking the rocks out to clean the tank? I take mine out about once a month it used to be once a week but thats too much imo. I do that and really clean the rocks in aquairum water. I had the diatom issue to for a little while. Cutting down on lighting time (which in the spring/summer you have more daylight and more time for diatoms, algae to grow) will help. My mbuna get a day without lights every week, and I shorten their daylight in the tank to 6 hours. Daily glass cleaning is also helping. I keep the back glass free of scrapings so my little guys can have some algae to eat.

Ive had success with my bristlenose plecos, they have even spawned in the tank with my mbuna. I would make sure if you get them to give plenty of rocks and caves that only they can fit in. My mbuna seem to be on the lower end of aggression, eventhough they killed a 4 inch common pleco in 12 hours (i'll never go down that road again!)

Angela_96

The inch per gallon doesn't apply in the cichlid world. With mbuna overstocking is the key to lowering aggression. In my 55g I keep about 15 mbuna at any given time. For a 45g I would say 10 would do it and really help with aggression levels. Bristlenose guys don't get over 4 inches, they are "dwarfs" compared to the other ones. As for other suggestions I have never kept a CAE that would be something to consider.

Cichlidelicious

Hello Anna. Thanks for your comments. Please see my previous posts. Due to the small size of the tank, I am being very careful regarding what I put in it. As I noted a moment ago, I've got five mbuna in there right now -- possibly hybrids of M. Johanni, M. Cyaneorhabdos or Pseudotropheus Msobo -- but that's another story. There are just enough caves and tunnels to maintain this current mbuna population. While there is obviously some aggression, due to the layout of the tank, it isn't so severe that heads are rolling, and fins are flying -- but my dominant male has established his "reign of terror".

Plecos are definitely out for this tank, as are CAE. They are too big, and too aggressive for my taste.

I might just wait for the diatoms to die off on their own. I suspect that this process may have already started to happen with my recent two water changes, as the silicates are more depleted than before.

Cichlidelicious

Sand in the filters really isn't a major problem anymore since I did a little reconfiguring, and now use powerheads to pump water up through my external filters, instead of relying upon the filters' impellers which sucked up the water through the lift tubes. It was the impellers that would get clogged with sand, but I removed the impellers, and now I don't even need to plug in the filters, since I use the powerheads instead to push up the water.

Actually, because of the way I have the tank designed, there is no need to take out the rocks -- which would be a major project anyway. I use some very big, heavy limestone rocks as my base rocks, and at my age, removing them -- as I've done a few times in order to redesign the tank -- is a real back-breaker.

My base rocks all sit on smaller rocks, which sit on the glass bottom. My mbunas have dug a network of tunnels in the sand under the rocks from one end of the tank to the other. In other words, there is good water flow around and under all of the rocks. I also use a turkey baster several times on a daily basis to dust off rocks and sand as needed. Once the detritus is suspended in the water column, the powerheads suck it out. I change my filter pads on a regular basis, and also conduct water changes. nitrate level is always 0 to 12.5 mg/l, which is very good.

Actually, contrary to popular aquarium myth, the light source is not the main issue with diatoms -- silica nutrients is. I use local sand, local limestone rock, and our water here is naturally hard and alkaline, which all contribute to more silicates being in the water, and being used by the diatoms. In other words, whether the light source is strong or weak, if there are a lot of silicates in the tank, the diatoms will flourish.

As I noted earlier, plecos -- of any size -- are out of the question for my tank. I'd rather endure the diatoms until they die off.

Cichlidelicious

Hello again Angela. I am quite familiar with the concept of overstocking in order to deter aggression, but I also believe that this concept needs to be balanced with the effect of a large bio-load on overall water quality. I have been studying these fish for the past several months, and feel that I don't want to put too many more fish in the tank. While I could push it to the limits population-wise, do even more water changes, etc., I'd rather keep a lower population and give each fish more living space. Thanks for your advice though; I do appreciate it.

Angela_96

I don't know if you are familar with how Lake Malawi's natural enviroment is, but the fish tend to stay in large populated groups. I have tons of filitration (2 heavy duty ones) a canister and HOB on each of my mbuna tanks, do 2 times a week if not once a week water changes and never had my nitrates go above 10ppm, let alone any other parameter going off the scale. There are a lot of rocks in my tank, and they are put in there in a way I can take them out and really do a good cleaning if need be, plus they need their territories moved around every so often.

Cichlidelicious

Thanks again for your comments, Angela. I will take them into consideration.